Ungrateful Americans Unworthy of the French

"guy wastiaux" wrote in message
...
just wanted to add that WWI lasted just 4 years It's quite enough
already.
Apart from that, nice article
Hey Al Minyard : you seem to forget it was mostly French and European
philosophists who made it possible to write the US constitution,
through their ideas. You OWE to Europe your very existence as a
democracy. And don't pretend otherwise.


France only helped the US because they hated the Brits. They used the US for
their own selfish agenda.


The Black Monk wrote:
The French


BM


--
Guy Wastiaux
aka FauCon PoiLu
visit me @ http://guy.4002.org/
mail me @ faucon.Wastiaux @ laposte.net

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...

Actually, you can. The Germans clearly defeated the French Army.


That's clear only to the ignorant.

"Malev" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 11:44:42 GMT, "Christians for Cheeseburgers."
wrote:


France only helped the US because they hated the Brits. They used the US
for
their own selfish agenda.


You are a long way from getting the Nobel Prize for History.


In this case he's pretty much spot on.

The French motivation for helping the fledgling US
was scarcely a love of democracy, France
was govened by an absolute monarch.

On the other hand France was at war with Britain at the
time. France and Britain were global rivals in pretty
much the same way the USA and USSR were after WW2.

Keith

I disagree. You're wright when you say that France was ruled by an
absolut monarch, but helping the Americans against the British just for
their agenda is not all the way true. There was really this motivation
of hurting GBs colonies, but the main thrust of help that the US was
getting didn't come from the King.
If you dig in deeper, you'll find out that it was mainly businessmen
like Beaumarchais who were interested in selling weaponry to the US,
around 1760/1770. It's true that french troops were used, but France had
many colonies around the area, so it wasn't such a big effort.
Those same businessmen were the spear of the intellectual revolution of
1789, as in they were the ones who established the basis of the new
post-kingdom society. So there truly was an interest in democracy,
especially since the US were the first colonies to arise against an old
type of society, like the one ruling France at the time. Of course, the
French Kings, Louis XV and Louis XVI after that, weren't really
interested in democracy

Finally, you're totally off the spot (;D) when comparing the rivalry
between France & England and the one between USSR & the US. At the time,
both kingdoms were from the same type, whereas the US & USSR were
completely different, and I think it changes things a lot.


Keith Willshaw wrote:
In this case he's pretty much spot on.

The French motivation for helping the fledgling US
was scarcely a love of democracy, France
was govened by an absolute monarch.

On the other hand France was at war with Britain at the
time. France and Britain were global rivals in pretty
much the same way the USA and USSR were after WW2.

Keith




--
Guy Wastiaux
aka FauCon PoiLu
visit me @ http://guy.4002.org/
mail me @ faucon.Wastiaux @ laposte.net

"guy wastiaux" wrote in message
...
I disagree. You're wright when you say that France was ruled by an
absolut monarch, but helping the Americans against the British just for
their agenda is not all the way true. There was really this motivation
of hurting GBs colonies, but the main thrust of help that the US was
getting didn't come from the King.

It came from the French State which was the King, nothing
happened without his approval, those who behaved in ways
Le Roi disapproved of ended up in the Bastille.


If you dig in deeper, you'll find out that it was mainly businessmen
like Beaumarchais who were interested in selling weaponry to the US,
around 1760/1770. It's true that french troops were used, but France had
many colonies around the area, so it wasn't such a big effort.

French troops could only be committed with the approval of the
French monarch and the French Navy was heavily involved too.

Those same businessmen were the spear of the intellectual revolution of
1789, as in they were the ones who established the basis of the new
post-kingdom society. So there truly was an interest in democracy,
especially since the US were the first colonies to arise against an old
type of society, like the one ruling France at the time. Of course, the
French Kings, Louis XV and Louis XVI after that, weren't really
interested in democracy


However the fact remains that the motivation for the aid
supplied by the French state to the fledgling USA was
to hurt Britain

There may indeed have been business men who
had other interests but then that was true of England
too. A lot of English interests sympathised with the
rebels.

Finally, you're totally off the spot (;D) when comparing the rivalry
between France & England and the one between USSR & the US. At the time,
both kingdoms were from the same type, whereas the US & USSR were
completely different, and I think it changes things a lot.


Actually I believe I'm spot on

The rivalry was global, France and England fought each other
for colonial possessions around the world. Wellington
learned his craft fighting French supported forces in India.

George Washington had been part of the forces supporting
the British during the French and Indian wars

During the series of wars that only ended at Waterloo
French and British forces came into conflict on every
continent except Antarctica, even the colonisation
of Australia was a race with the British getting there
first.

Keith

On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 21:42:31 +0200, guy wastiaux
wrote:

just wanted to add that WWI lasted just 4 years It's quite enough
already.
Apart from that, nice article
Hey Al Minyard : you seem to forget it was mostly French and European
philosophists who made it possible to write the US constitution,
through their ideas. You OWE to Europe your very existence as a
democracy. And don't pretend otherwise.


The Black Monk wrote:
The French


BM

What rubbish. The Europeans were still absolute monarchies at the
time. The European democracies owe their existence to the US.

Al Minyard

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:59:35 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
.. .

Actually, you can. The Germans clearly defeated the French Army.


That's clear only to the ignorant.

So you are not aware of the mutinies in the French Army? Or the fact
that they had lost virtually all of their offensive capability??

Al Minyard

quite true for the monarchies, but they was this intense intellectual
effort from the European elites, whose ideas eventually led to the
writing of the constitution. The fact that there were absolut monarchies
in Europe didn't prevent those ideas to emerge. Of course there were
many actors in-between, but they just passed the stuff along.

Alan Minyard wrote:
On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 21:42:31 +0200, guy wastiaux
wrote:


just wanted to add that WWI lasted just 4 years It's quite enough
already.
Apart from that, nice article
Hey Al Minyard : you seem to forget it was mostly French and European
philosophists who made it possible to write the US constitution,
through their ideas. You OWE to Europe your very existence as a
democracy. And don't pretend otherwise.


The Black Monk wrote:

The French

BM


What rubbish. The Europeans were still absolute monarchies at the
time. The European democracies owe their existence to the US.

Al Minyard


--
Guy Wastiaux
aka FauCon PoiLu
visit me @ http://guy.4002.org/
mail me @ faucon.Wastiaux @ laposte.net

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:02:56 -0500, Alan Minyard
wrote:

What rubbish. The Europeans were still absolute monarchies at the
time. The European democracies owe their existence to the US.


? You think that the Brits had an absolute monarchy in 1776? The
Dutch?

Scott

Alan Minyard wrote in
:

On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 03:38:21 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"The Black Monk" wrote in message
.com...

Germany surrendered not just to France. It collapsed fighting
against the combined forces of France, the UK, and the USA.


The point is you can't count WWI as a win for Germany and a loss for
France.

Actually, you can. The Germans clearly defeated the French Army.

Al Minyard


Al,

Put down the crack pipe. Now.

-Chuck