??VF-162-1967 VN combat cruise

Reading 'Over the Beach',

Questions-

-How many pilots did they deploy with? They had a det in Cubi and 10 jets...

-Seems like a pretty unhappy group. Dept heads that were either labeled as
effeminate or cowards, JOs that got short and yelled at the CO, a JO that
turned his wings in cuz he didn't agree with the war, A CO that wasn't very
well liked, a former CO that was committed to a looney bin...

I know it was over a long period of time and also during combat, which can
bring out the best and worse of people but it seems like a not very cohesive
group...

Anybody have an insight? Masher??
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

"Pechs1" wrote in message
...
Reading 'Over the Beach',

Questions-

-How many pilots did they deploy with? They had a det in Cubi and 10
jets...

-Seems like a pretty unhappy group. Dept heads that were either labeled as
effeminate or cowards, JOs that got short and yelled at the CO, a JO that
turned his wings in cuz he didn't agree with the war, A CO that wasn't
very
well liked, a former CO that was committed to a looney bin...

I know it was over a long period of time and also during combat, which can
bring out the best and worse of people but it seems like a not very
cohesive
group...

Anybody have an insight? Masher??
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
Phlyer

I guess I had met and knew all of them, before they made their first cruise
on the big "O". They were a good group of very skilled fighter pilots. Real
good, I had flown with many of them in the early 60's and flew a lot of
hours against all of them during their pre-deployment work-up.

Belly "B" (the former CO) was a wild man, but one of the best sticks I ever
flew with. Even in the early '60's he was considered "old School", a throw
back to the old days. His way wasn't the way to get ahead in the Navy. He
was a leader, not a manage, had few social graces, was probably an
alcoholic, and was definitely out of place in the peacetime Navy. But while
I was around him he was able to maintain control of himself. (I understand
that later on this was not always the case). I learned a whole lot, (good
and bad) from him in a very short time, during my nugget days. There wasn't
a lot of time to learn anything during the Cuban Missile Crisis, but Belly
and a couple of others taught me enough, so that I might have had a chance
if we had gone up against Cuban MiG-21's. ACM was the way of life in F-8' s
in those days. I guess if I admitted it Belly was the one that taught me the
correct way to make a vertical pass on a bomber. (A.K.A. thumping).

Most VF (F-8) squadrons at that time, deployed to SE Asia with 19 pilots.
They usually had a few aircraft at Cubi, in maintenance, with one pilot
(MaintO or one of the AsstMaintO). While on station, who ever needed or
earned a brake would ferry an aircraft back to cubi, spend a few days and
fly the replacement back. Plus the fighter squadrons had its choice of the
other aviators on the Wing staff, Carrier Group staff and ships company.
That meant that there were probably 23 or 24 total that flew with regularly.
(Although staff and ships company usually got stuck with fleet BARCAP or the
less desirable missions such as checking out the sampans).

I would say on their first deployment there were predominately two types in
the squadron. One were the guys that all they wanted to do was fly and
nothing else. The other were the ones that had careers. (This is not to say
that some of the ones with careers weren't warriors, some were). On the
first cruise they were tight, later on I understand the two groups split
almost into open warfare. I can't really say anything first hand, as I was
flying RF-8's then and only spoke to them in passing so to say. But they
didn't call the Wing "Bloody 16" for no reason at all. They were all under a
lot of stress, and it wasn't due to bad luck, but they had a lot of losses.
They went through some sh*t. I don't remember the numbers, but just about
every aircraft on the ship had been replaced once, and many had been
replaced two or three times. They had the highest losses of anyone in
Vietnam. IIRC VF-162 went through 15 aircraft, and brought back none of the
original ones, I believe they deployed with 14. The A-4 loses were even
higher, and I believe one squadron had 24 or 25 aircraft lost.

The accounts I got from friends about wings being turned in, was that it
definitely wasn't because he was scared or a coward. This was not the case
of several others (none in VF-162) that managed to leave the Navy, "because
they owed it to their families, to have a career with the airlines".

Of course this is all my opinion, and my reputation was such that I never
had to worry about getting a flag, (unless it was on my coffin) even if I
had been able to stay in the Navy.
--
Red

Red- Of course this is all my opinion, and my reputation was such that I
never
had to worry about getting a flag, (unless it was on my coffin) even if I
had been able to stay in the Navy. BRBR

Thanks, exactly what I was looking for. I missed being in combat in every
squadron I was in. Wings in 1974, second CV 'there' for the Mayaguez(sp?),
Acciile Lauro(sp/ again), 'second' CV for Libya and Lebanon strikes. Trained to
'kill people and break things' but my year group was unique in that most saw no
combat(YG 73). Didn't want to get killed or I didn't lust after combat but I
would have liked to experience it, at least once.

I saw a sliver of it when I was a middie, onboard Kitty hawk in summer of
1972, Yankee station, sort of attached to VA-52. Flew a couple of tanker
missions over the North, until CO of the CVA found out and stopped it. I could
feel the tension among the A-6 guys. One Mid 'almost' flew a backseat barcap
mssion in a F-4 with VF-114..almost.

Saw/felt it again when in Cubi, when Midway, Hancock were both there...O club
was amazing.....
Almost got my lights punched out when a A-6 guy told me to go over to some guy
at the bar and say' F-8 pilots eat flowers'. Of course he was a F-8 pilot.


P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Red,
Great post!
Having a taste of flying in hostile air in DS I think the feelings must be the
same across time. Combat was a defining point in my life. very glad I did it
but not something I want to do again. I didn't quite understand the quote below
are you saying they left for the political disagreements with the US policy in
SEA or to save their skin.?

The accounts I got from friends about wings being turned in, was that it
definitely wasn't because he was scared or a coward. This was not the case
of several others (none in VF-162) that managed to leave the Navy, "because
they owed it to their families, to have a career with the airlines".

I was told that one CO from another squadron on another boat stood up on the
eve of DS and said that he was destined to lead men into combat! I would have
slugged him if I had been there. Knowing the guy I can belive he said it.

Sparky

I made a cruise On Yorktown CV-10 . Late 64 and up till june 65 . A
cruise was still 9 months then . I believe we had 5 Skyhawks on board .
Most of the Nam cost time was S2 F,s doing surveillance flights along
the coast . But our Sky Hawks flew missions into Nam . Left with
ordanance and came home empty . I was a bridge watch stander , Helmsman
So I had a good view of the Flt Deck . So , Am I right , We had
carrier ops as early as , Early 65 ?? Or Earlier ???

Two were definitely doing it to save their skins. Their secret came out when
one showed up in the Navy reserves as a Squadron XO (??????) and the other a
couple of years after that in the Air National Guard that was doing their
active duty on a joint base. Another one was questionable, but everyone
liked him so I guess he got the benefit of doubt. Also there were several in
the attack community that I heard about but don't have first hand knowledge
of.

--
Red



"Elmshoot" wrote in message
...
Red,
Great post!
Having a taste of flying in hostile air in DS I think the feelings must be
the
same across time. Combat was a defining point in my life. very glad I did
it
but not something I want to do again. I didn't quite understand the quote
below
are you saying they left for the political disagreements with the US
policy in
SEA or to save their skin.?

The accounts I got from friends about wings being turned in, was that it
definitely wasn't because he was scared or a coward. This was not the
case
of several others (none in VF-162) that managed to leave the Navy,
"because
they owed it to their families, to have a career with the airlines".

I was told that one CO from another squadron on another boat stood up on
the
eve of DS and said that he was destined to lead men into combat! I would
have
slugged him if I had been there. Knowing the guy I can belive he said it.

Sparky

"T Bird" wrote in message
...
I made a cruise On Yorktown CV-10 . Late 64 and up till june 65 . A
cruise was still 9 months then . I believe we had 5 Skyhawks on board .
Most of the Nam cost time was S2 F,s doing surveillance flights along
the coast . But our Sky Hawks flew missions into Nam . Left with
ordanance and came home empty . I was a bridge watch stander , Helmsman
So I had a good view of the Flt Deck . So , Am I right , We had
carrier ops as early as , Early 65 ?? Or Earlier ???


I don't know if the dates are that big a secret anymore or not. Probably not
as every reporter knew about it anyway, but we started flying recon "Yankee
Team"(May 64) with RF-8's and Air Force RF-101's into Laos, which was three
months before the Tonkin Gulf Incident (Aug 64). After a couple of RF-8's
received ground fire, flew into mountains, and other things, they started
having a F-8 fly escort for them, but that was just so they knew why the
RF-8 didn't come back. The first RF-8 was lost on 6 June 1964, easy day to
remember as it was the anniversary of "D-Day". I am having a senior moment
and I can't recall the pilots name. He was captured and escaped from the
Pathat (sp?) Lao, and later rescued. I believe he and Diter Dingler an A-1
pilot were the only two Naval Aviators to escape and be rescued during the
whole SE Asia War Game. At that time it wasn't very likely they were going
to recover any pilots from Laos. Good SAR in that area had to wait for the
Air Force to put bases in Thailand and secret forward SAR bases in Cambodia
and Laos.

The route was through the northern part of South Vietnam, the north into
Laos (Plain of Jars mainly), and return the same way. A big "L" or sometimes
a big "U". Due to the fuel situations etc., more than one mission cut the
corners and returned to the boat via North Vietnam, but officially it was
never noticed, and I don't remember Ho Chi Mien saying anything about it
either, but he had to know. After Aug 64 flight plans were straight over
North Vietnam, and a month or so later air strikes were started into Laos.
Then things got serious!

"Pechs1" wrote in message
...
Red- Of course this is all my opinion, and my reputation was such that I
never
had to worry about getting a flag, (unless it was on my coffin) even if I
had been able to stay in the Navy. BRBR

Thanks, exactly what I was looking for. I missed being in combat in every
squadron I was in. Wings in 1974, second CV 'there' for the Mayaguez(sp?),
Acciile Lauro(sp/ again), 'second' CV for Libya and Lebanon strikes.
Trained to
'kill people and break things' but my year group was unique in that most
saw no
combat(YG 73). Didn't want to get killed or I didn't lust after combat but
I
would have liked to experience it, at least once.

I saw a sliver of it when I was a middie, onboard Kitty hawk in summer of
1972, Yankee station, sort of attached to VA-52. Flew a couple of tanker
missions over the North, until CO of the CVA found out and stopped it. I
could
feel the tension among the A-6 guys. One Mid 'almost' flew a backseat
barcap
mssion in a F-4 with VF-114..almost.

Saw/felt it again when in Cubi, when Midway, Hancock were both there...O
club
was amazing.....
Almost got my lights punched out when a A-6 guy told me to go over to some
guy
at the bar and say' F-8 pilots eat flowers'. Of course he was a F-8 pilot.


P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
Phlyer

Yeah I remember you youngsters on your 72 summer cruise. We were just
getting back to WestPAC with new Aircraft, to replace our old worn out
birds, when they were kicking you off the ships. Also the first EA-6B's were
arriving too. By the way didn't you know never to trust an attack pilot.
--
Red

Red Rider wrote:

snip

I don't know if the dates are that big a secret anymore or not. Probably not
as every reporter knew about it anyway, but we started flying recon "Yankee
Team"(May 64) with RF-8's and Air Force RF-101's into Laos, which was three
months before the Tonkin Gulf Incident (Aug 64). After a couple of RF-8's
received ground fire, flew into mountains, and other things, they started
having a F-8 fly escort for them, but that was just so they knew why the
RF-8 didn't come back. The first RF-8 was lost on 6 June 1964, easy day to
remember as it was the anniversary of "D-Day". I am having a senior moment
and I can't recall the pilots name.

Chuck Klusmann.

snip

Guy

"Red Rider" wrote in message . com...
Two were definitely doing it to save their skins. Their secret came out when
one showed up in the Navy reserves as a Squadron XO (??????) and the other a
couple of years after that in the Air National Guard that was doing their
active duty on a joint base. Another one was questionable, but everyone
liked him so I guess he got the benefit of doubt. Also there were several in
the attack community that I heard about but don't have first hand knowledge
of.

--
Red


I listened disgust to an A-4 driver (Cdr.) in Newport in the summer of
'67 talk about how he was NOT going to make a WestPac and get his ass
shot off. He didn't and later was a CO and CAG while deploying
exclusively to the MED. This jackass eventually made Rear
Admiral...Name started with an S