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#51
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Sir,
Since You know this matter well I would like a conformation and an information. "World Air Power Journal" published in 1999. reported 35 to 40 enemy aircraft shot down by Iranian Tomcats, is this corect? How many Iraqi aircraft were shot down by F-4's and did F-5's score any? Nemanja Vukicevic aeronautical engineering student |
#52
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B2431 wrote:
Now notice how you changed from MiG-37 to MiG25 to avoid answering my question. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired No books have been written about the MiG-37 apart from the Italeri manual for their plastic model :-) But if you mean MiG-31, than, as you (probably don't) know, it's original designation during development was MiG-25MP (Ye-155MP). -- Regards, Venik Visit my site: http://www.aeronautics.ru If you need to e-mail me, please use the following subject line: ?Subject=Newsgr0ups_resp0 nse |
#53
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Tom Cooper wrote:
Besides, when you state that the MiG-25 or MiG-31 have had such an "impact" on US planing that the SR-71 was retired, why don't you then also explain about the impact of the F-14 on further developments of MiG-25s? Because we are talking about SR-71 and MiG-25. We can also talk about the impact of the MiG-25 on the development of the F-14, but this wouldn't really have anything to do with SR-71, would it? Namely, this was stopped on a direct order from Moscow after a second Soviet-flown MiG-25BMs on testing in Iraq was shot down by Iranian F-14s (using "non-operational" AIM-54s) - in 1987. If you want to talk about the F-14, then, perhaps, you should start another thread, unless, of course, your intention is to shift the topic of this discussion to the Iran-Iraq war (during which there were no verifiable MiG-25 kills by the F-14 - just a lot of claims by the glorious Iranian AF. One MiG-25RB was downed by an Iranian Hawk. I've read your book about the Iran-Iraq war and you don't present any evidence of the MiG-25 - F-14 encounters you describe in such vivid details. Just a bunch on baloney. -- Regards, Venik Visit my site: http://www.aeronautics.ru If you need to e-mail me, please use the following subject line: ?Subject=Newsgr0ups_resp0 nse |
#54
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Wolfhenson wrote:
Any steel containing 5% nickel or more is considered to be resistant to atmospheric corrosion in addition most nickel steels contain chromium in similar quantity as nickel and that is another element that makes the steel stainless. Let's stick to technical definitions: stainless steel is a ferrous alloy with a minimum of 10.5% chromium content. Major elements of the MiG-25 were made of appoximately 80% of VNS-2, VNS-4, and VNS-5 alloys, 11% D-19T aluminum alloy and 8% OT4-1 titanium alloy, none of which falls under this definition. -- Regards, Venik Visit my site: http://www.aeronautics.ru If you need to e-mail me, please use the following subject line: ?Subject=Newsgr0ups_resp0 nse |
#55
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#56
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But, I don't understand why do you then ignore the impact of Western technology on Soviet thinking and planing? Why ignore the amount of Western-technology used to develop specific Soviet systems (the Kh-58, main armament of the MiG-25BM, for example, was developed from French-built AJ.168 ARM, supplied to USSR via Iraq) or ignore Soviet own negative experiences with some of their most potent systems...? Small correction. The AJ168 was the British part of the Anglo-French Martel project (AS37 being the French developed anti-radiation version, the AJ168 the British developed TV guided version). |
#57
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"Wolfhenson" wrote in message om... Sir, Since You know this matter well I would like a conformation and an information. "World Air Power Journal" published in 1999. reported 35 to 40 enemy aircraft shot down by Iranian Tomcats, is this corect? The number of kills (confirmed by cross-examination of Iranian, Iraqi, US and Saudi files) is actually three times higher; between 30 and 40 additional "probable", "possible" and "claimed" kills are currently still under investigation. How many Iraqi aircraft were shot down by F-4's and did F-5's score any? Approx 110 by F-4s, and between 30 and 35 by F-5s (including two Foxbats, one of which was shot down by 20mm cannons while underway at low level). -- Tom Cooper Freelance Aviation Journalist & Historian Vienna, Austria ************************************************* Author: Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988: http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S7875 Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S6585 African MiGs http://www.acig.org/afmig/ Arab MiG-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...=S6550~ser=COM ************************************************* |
#58
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"Venik" wrote in message
... Tom Cooper wrote: Besides, when you state that the MiG-25 or MiG-31 have had such an "impact" on US planing that the SR-71 was retired, why don't you then also explain about the impact of the F-14 on further developments of MiG-25s? Because we are talking about SR-71 and MiG-25. We can also talk about the impact of the MiG-25 on the development of the F-14, but this wouldn't really have anything to do with SR-71, would it? Well, if you would know what are you actually talking about then you'd know that it actually has to do. Then, the SR-71 came into existence from a project that was also developed into the YF-12. And... the YF-12 was equipped with a direct predecessor of the AWG-9 radar, and armed with a direct predecessor of the AIM-54.... Namely, this was stopped on a direct order from Moscow after a second Soviet-flown MiG-25BMs on testing in Iraq was shot down by Iranian F-14s (using "non-operational" AIM-54s) - in 1987. If you want to talk about the F-14, then, perhaps, you should start another thread, unless, of course, your intention is to shift the topic of this discussion to the Iran-Iraq war... You're explaining about the - supposed - impact of the MiG-25 and MiG-31 (the last of which was actually developed to counter B-1s and their AGM-86 ALCMs) on SR-71. I said, "OK, no problem". And, then I asked you why don't you explain about the impact of (extremely negative) experiences from the testing of Soviet equipment in Iran-Iraq War, which was _indeed_ highly influential for (the end of) development of MiG-25? If, "this is not the right thread to talk about that" is your only answer, no problem, just say so... ...(during which there were no verifiable MiG-25 kills by the F-14 - just a lot of claims by the glorious Iranian AF. If there is no "verifiable" MiG-25-kill scored by IRIAF F-14s against IrAF and Soviet MiG-25s during that war, then, please be so kind to explain: - why are there pictures of MiG-25-wreckage (like on p.64 of "Iranian F-14 Units in Combat", just for example)? - why are there ex-IrAF MiG-25 pilots who confirm a loss of at least two dozens of Iraqi and Soviet Foxbats to Iranian F-14s? - why do the US intel documents one can get via FOIA procedures confirming Iranian and Iraqi documents, pilot- and eyewitness-accounts? One MiG-25RB was downed by an Iranian Hawk. Well, the IRIAF I-HAWKs rather got something like four, but that's another story. What I'd like to know here is the following: as you're so sure that only one IrAF Foxbat was shot down by Iranians, then explain us here how it comes that according to a document I've got released from the Central MoD Archive in Moscow, Iraq has got over 60 MiG-25s from USSR between 1980 and 1989. According to the same document, and also US intel documents released according to FOIA procedures, however, there were barely 30 of them left by 1991. How do you explain this difference? What happened to 30 MiG-25s delivered to Iraq but missing by 1991? Also, if we're now going back to the overall pictu even if only 1 Foxbat was shot down by Iranian MIM-23s, in total that makes three shot down over Lebanon by the Israelis, one by the Iranians, and two by USAF in 1991. That's six MiG-25s - at least (the actual number is over 30, but never mind). Could you now explain us how many SR-71s were shot down in something like 4.000 SAM-firings against them? I've read your book about the Iran-Iraq war and you don't present any evidence of the MiG-25 - F-14 encounters you describe in such vivid details. Just a bunch on baloney. Of course: my books are full of no evidence for such encounters, and lots of baloney. Everybody knows this meanwhile. BTW, what is the "evidence" for all these "successful" interceptions of SR-71s by Soviet fighters you're talking about? Any gun-camera pictures or radar bands at hand? Oh, and, BTW #2, I also asked: - Can you name a single book that would explain the impact of MiG-31 on the US planning? - Would you be so kind to tell us why were all the orders for IFR-equipped MiG-25s for Libya, Syria and Iraq cancelled in late 1987/1988? Are you able to offer a reasonable answer to these questions, or do you prefer to ignore them again? -- Tom Cooper Freelance Aviation Journalist & Historian Vienna, Austria ************************************************* Author: Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988: http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S7875 Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S6585 African MiGs http://www.acig.org/afmig/ Arab MiG-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...=S6550~ser=COM ************************************************* |
#59
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Tom Cooper wrote:
Well, if you would know what are you actually talking about then you'd know that it actually has to do. Then, the SR-71 came into existence from a project that was also developed into the YF-12. And... the YF-12 was equipped with a direct predecessor of the AWG-9 radar, and armed with a direct predecessor of the AIM-54.... And... they all came from the Wright flyer. Like I said, you are trying to change the subject of the discussion. You're explaining about the - supposed - impact of the MiG-25 and MiG-31 (the last of which was actually developed to counter B-1s and their AGM-86 ALCMs) on SR-71. I am talking about the role of the MiG-25/31 in the decision to withdraw the SR-71 from service. And you are deliberately trying to change the topic. If there is no "verifiable" MiG-25-kill scored by IRIAF F-14s against IrAF and Soviet MiG-25s during that war, then, please be so kind to explain: - why are there pictures of MiG-25-wreckage (like on p.64 of "Iranian F-14 Units in Combat", just for example)? Iraq lost several MiG-25s in accidents during the conflict. As I already mentioned, one was lost to an Iranian SAM. One was lost due to uncontained engine failure. Another one was lost on landing during a test flight . Well, the IRIAF I-HAWKs rather got something like four, but that's another story. I know, according to your book, Iraq lost about three times the number of MiG-25 it had. That's not even counting the ones downed during the PGW. What I'd like to know here is the following: as you're so sure that only one IrAF Foxbat was shot down by Iranians, then explain us here how it comes that according to a document I've got released from the Central MoD Archive in Moscow, Iraq has got over 60 MiG-25s from USSR between 1980 and 1989. According to the same document, and also US intel documents released according to FOIA procedures, however, there were barely 30 of them left by 1991. It's a well-documented fact that Iraq acquired only 12 MiG-25PDs and eight MiG-25RB recce bombers. The refurbished MiG-25 that crashed in Dec. 1987 during a test flight was replaced by the Soviets. And, of course, three Iraqi MiG-25s were lost during the PGW - two P-types were downed by a pair of F-15Cs on the 19th and one more - by a pair of F-16s on the 25th. My only suggestion is that you should look for better "secret" documents and stop thinking stuff up. -- Regards, Venik Visit my site: http://www.aeronautics.ru If you need to e-mail me, please use the following subject line: ?Subject=Newsgr0ups_resp0 nse |
#60
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"Venik" wrote in message ... snip You're explaining about the - supposed - impact of the MiG-25 and MiG-31 (the last of which was actually developed to counter B-1s and their AGM-86 ALCMs) on SR-71. I am talking about the role of the MiG-25/31 in the decision to withdraw the SR-71 from service. And you are deliberately trying to change the topic. You can complain I'm "changing the topic" as much as you like. The point is only that you're avoiding answers to all questions asked in your direction here, and can therefore continue explaining me whatever you want until the hell freezes. Namely, you still have not mentioned all these books and documents in which the US thinking and plans were changed because of MiG-31s. No trace of any kind of proof is coming from you (no surprise: you still haven't provided any proof for 200+ NATO planes shot down over Serbia, in 1999, either - even if you're announcing this since five years ). I'm telling you right away - like so many others here - that the SR-71 was _not_ retired because of MiG-25/31 threat, and you have not a trace of evidence to deny this. So, either you finally mention all these books and documents so we can take a look and you can prove us wrong, or admit you have no evidence at all for your statements. If there is no "verifiable" MiG-25-kill scored by IRIAF F-14s against IrAF and Soviet MiG-25s during that war, then, please be so kind to explain: - why are there pictures of MiG-25-wreckage (like on p.64 of "Iranian F-14 Units in Combat", just for example)? Iraq lost several MiG-25s in accidents during the conflict. As I already mentioned, one was lost to an Iranian SAM. One was lost due to uncontained engine failure. Another one was lost on landing during a test flight . You're avoiding to answer my question, so here it is again: - why are there pictures of wreckage of IrAF and Soviet MiG-25s shot down over Iran? Besides, if your data is so "well documented", then explain me when was that one lost to an Iranian SAM and where? How about date and place? Who was the pilot? From which unit was he? Can you provide a picture of the plane or wreckage? Where and when was one lost "due to uncontained engine failure"? Who was the pilot of that plane? Can you provide a picture of that plane or its wreckage?Where and when was "another one lost on landing during a test flight"? BTW, do you at least have a clue which IrAF units used to operate MiG-25s? Detachments from which V-VS units were sent to Iraq to test their Foxbats in combat? Well, the IRIAF I-HAWKs rather got something like four, but that's another story. I know, according to your book, Iraq lost about three times the number of MiG-25 it had. Excellent: how about you citing from any of my books where do I state anything similar? You said you have read the book, so at least this should not be a problem....just cite exactly what can be found in the book "Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988" about the number of MiG-25s lost by Iraqis? What I'd like to know here is the following: as you're so sure that only one IrAF Foxbat was shot down by Iranians, then explain us here how it comes that according to a document I've got released from the Central MoD Archive in Moscow, Iraq has got over 60 MiG-25s from USSR between 1980 and 1989. According to the same document, and also US intel documents released according to FOIA procedures, however, there were barely 30 of them left by 1991. It's a well-documented fact that Iraq acquired only 12 MiG-25PDs.... Where is it "well documented"? What kind of evidence can you provide to support this statement? ...and eight MiG-25RB recce bombers. The refurbished MiG-25 that crashed in Dec. 1987 during a test flight was replaced by the Soviets. Where did it crash and what is the source for this? Why do the official Soviet documents state that over 60 MiG-25s were delivered to Iraq, but there were only 30 left in 1991? And, of course, three Iraqi MiG-25s were lost during the PGW - two P-types were downed by a pair of F-15Cs on the 19th and one more - by a pair of F-16s on the 25th. Which IrAF MiG-25s were shot down by F-16s in 1991? Which F-16-pilots scored these kills and with which weapons? My only suggestion is that you should look for better "secret" documents and stop thinking stuff up. No problem at all: I'll stop "thinking stuff up" and look for better documents as soon as you finally start answering my questions. Meanwhile you've ignored quite a lot of these, so here they are again: - I asked why don't you explain about the impact of (extremely negative) experiences from the testing of Soviet equipment in Iran-Iraq War, which was _indeed_ highly influential for (the end of) development of MiG-25? - I asked, could you now explain us how many SR-71s were shot down in something like 4.000 SAM-firings against them? - If there is no "verifiable" MiG-25-kill scored by IRIAF F-14s against IrAF and Soviet MiG-25s during that war, then, please be so kind to explain: - why are there pictures of MiG-25-wreckage (like on p.64 of "Iranian F-14 Units in Combat", just for example)? - why are there ex-IrAF MiG-25 pilots who confirm a loss of at least two dozens of Iraqi and Soviet Foxbats to Iranian F-14s? - why do the US intel documents one can get via FOIA procedures confirming Iranian and Iraqi documents, pilot- and eyewitness-accounts? I told you I have no problem with your explaining my books for "lots of baloney", nor stating I'm "thinking stuff up". But, you still have not answered what is the "evidence" for all these "successful" interceptions of SR-71s by Soviet fighters you're talking about (see your previous posts in this thread)? Can you provide any gun-camera pictures or radar bands, or point at any kind of a source that could? - Why do the US and Soviet documents agree with each other that over 60 MiG-25s were delivered to Iraq between 1980 and 1989, but barely 30 remained operational by 1991? - Can you name a single book that would explain the impact of MiG-31 on the US planning? - Would you be so kind to tell us why were all the orders for IFR-equipped MiG-25s for Libya, Syria and Iraq cancelled in late 1987/1988? Finally, are you able to offer a reasonable answer to even a single one of these questions, or do you prefer to show us how much you like to "think stuffs up" by ignoring them? -- Tom Cooper Freelance Aviation Journalist & Historian Vienna, Austria ************************************************* Author: Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988: http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S7875 Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S6585 African MiGs http://www.acig.org/afmig/ Arab MiG-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...=S6550~ser=COM ************************************************* |
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