East River turning radius

Ah... Well... I just through some random numbers in there... Of course, one
would not try and pull a 57G turn as cool as it sounds...

Thanks for the lesson! I learned something new today...


The calculator is correct by my reckoning. 80mph and 89 degree bank
gives 8 ft radius turning circle which is correct in theory. it sounds
ridiculous but really the 89 degree angle of bank is what is ridiculous .
such a turn if possible would pull 57 g. the calculation is not that
difficult. radius= v squared / g tan ( bank angle)
terry

--
Mike Flyin'8
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
http://flying.4alexanders.com

Swag,

To me that means he was trying to recover from an airframe disaster.


Huh? To me, that means the postcrash fire ignited it.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

"swag" wrote in message
oups.com...
Any body notice that CNN quoted the NTSB last nite as saying that the
parachute had been thermally deployed?

To me that means he was trying to recover from an airframe disaster.

NYT today: "a representative of the plane's maker, Cirrus Design, which is
working with the investigators, had determined that a small rocket
ordinarily used to deploy the chute had fired. But it appeared that the
rocket was set off by the heat of the fire that followed the crash, not by
one of the occupants while the plane was in the air"

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/13/nyregion/13crash.html

Possible, also possible that they hoped the BRS chute would
open and cushion the forward speed and impact. We'll just
have to wait and see all the evidence next year. There is
already a CG video of the impact, there may be more video
that will be found, the flight path will be refined, the
pilots experience in the NYC area will be examined, the
plane will be examined for any signs of a failure and
including any bird damage [feathers and blood may have
survived the fire and fall].

But for now, all pilots flying in and near such Class B
corridors can brush up on their steep turns with minimum
radius. Radio procedures and "self-announcing in the
corridors or getting ATC clearance through rather than being
required to turn might have helped in this case [ might
other times too].

It should be noted that it didn't open.


"swag" wrote in message
oups.com...
| Any body notice that CNN quoted the NTSB last nite as
saying that the
| parachute had been thermally deployed?
|
| To me that means he was trying to recover from an airframe
disaster.
| And it makes it much less likely that he was just botching
up a turn
| maneuver. I really have trouble visualizing a student
with his flight
| instructor flying into a building because he screwed up
the turn. And
| reaching up and pulling the big red lever in the roof.
Since we're all
| guessing, I'm going with loss of a flight control
surface --maybe a
| bird?
|
| Maule Driver wrote:
| As soon as I heard East Side, Cirrus, building strike -
I thought low
| time pilot, hot aircraft, many distractions, wrong side
of the VFR
| corridor having do the U-turn.
|
| I've lived on Roosevelt Island (middle of the East River
just south of
| the turn) and flown the corridor in a 172. I early on
decided never to
| fly the East River just because it's too tight and too
filled with
| traffic. It's not unsafe, it's just unnecessarily
challenging when the
| Hudson provides an equivalent experience.
|
| I don't know how you properly train for that flight....
Few of us spend
| much time flying within 1/4 mile of buildings and below
their tops. All
| of us can make the necessary turn at 1,000 feet in Iowa.
Most of us
| will find it catches your breath the first time you do
it at 800 feet in
| a concrete canyon near so many millions of people. Low
ceilings, some
| wind, some rapid fire Laguardia radio work in the
background. It's
| pretty high excitement.
|
| I had flown many hours ridge soaring the Appalachins -
500 feet above
| valley floor, 2 wingspans from the trees, redlining at
155mph, 200 miles
| from homebase. Then I went out west. It took me 3 days
of flying
| before I could get within a 1/4 mile of a Sierra peak,
5,000 feet above
| the valley floor, at 60 mph, 2 miles from takeoff.
Vice-a-versa for
| western pilots flying the eastern hills. It's all in
you head but it's
| all quite real. We already have the knowledge and
skills to do it. We
| just have to get the quivering mass of grey matter to
settle down enough
| to let the training take over.
|
| Gary Drescher wrote:
| Using the East River VFR corridor requires planning
the turn
| carefully--especially since you need to leave an extra
margin in case you
| have to dodge high-density traffic there.
|
| Yep. And not doing so can end up just like a guy in a
used Porsche on a
| rain slicked road - they just don't scramble jets on the
west coast
| while pulling the lifeless remains out of a Meadowlands
swamp.
|
| No point here... just rambling.
|

There were witnesses in the building, a working crew of
contractors if I remember, that reported seeing a puff of
smoke above the airplane before it hit. Another GUESS on my
part. They saw that they were going to crash into the
building and pulled the handle hoping it would stop their
forward speed and make the crash survivable. Either they
waited too long or the chute malfunctioned. [If they did
pull the handle, when and why will be subject to more
guesses]



"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
. ..
| "swag" wrote in message
|
oups.com...
| Any body notice that CNN quoted the NTSB last nite as
saying that the
| parachute had been thermally deployed?
|
| To me that means he was trying to recover from an
airframe disaster.
|
| NYT today: "a representative of the plane's maker, Cirrus
Design, which is
| working with the investigators, had determined that a
small rocket
| ordinarily used to deploy the chute had fired. But it
appeared that the
| rocket was set off by the heat of the fire that followed
the crash, not by
| one of the occupants while the plane was in the air"
|
| http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/13/nyregion/13crash.html
|
|

swag wrote:
Any body notice that CNN quoted the NTSB last nite as saying that the
parachute had been thermally deployed?

I took that to mean that the fire had caused to deploy.

wrote in message
...
Ah... Well... I just through some random numbers in there... Of course,
one
would not try and pull a 57G turn as cool as it sounds...

Thanks for the lesson! I learned something new today...


The calculator is correct by my reckoning. 80mph and 89 degree bank
gives 8 ft radius turning circle which is correct in theory. it sounds
ridiculous but really the 89 degree angle of bank is what is ridiculous
..
such a turn if possible would pull 57 g. the calculation is not that
difficult. radius= v squared / g tan ( bank angle)
terry

I should add that this calulation assumes all the lift is coming from the
wing , but that theory would imply that an aircraft cant hold altitude in a
90 degree bank, and of course we have all seen aerobatic aircraft do this.
For this to occur the lift must be coming from the fuselage of the aircraft
and so the equation will not be strictly correct. But for the type of turns
that mere mortals like me will do I think it tells the story. I have heard
guys on this group regulary mention 60 degree or 2 g turns, but in my
training steep turns were 45 degrees maximum.
terry

d&tm writes:

I should add that this calulation assumes all the lift is coming from the
wing , but that theory would imply that an aircraft cant hold altitude in a
90 degree bank, and of course we have all seen aerobatic aircraft do this.

No, you haven't. It's impossible to hold altitude in a 90° bank. In
fact, it's impossible to execute a coordinated turn with a 90° bank.
A 90° bank requires infinite speed, because the acceleration vector
would have to be perpendicular to gravity, which is never possible as
long as gravity is non-zero. With both vertical and horizontal
non-zero components, the net acceleration vector can never be
completely horizontal or vertical. You can eliminate the non-zero
horizontal component in level flight, but you cannot eliminate the
force of gravity, so a 0° "bank" (i.e., level flight) is perfectly
possible, but a 90° bank is not.

You can come infinitely close to 90°, but you can never reach it, in
any type of aircraft. In an aircraft that can withstand 9 Gs, you can
reach slightly less than an 84° bank, but no more.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

A manuever similar to what you are describing that I like to do in the
Archer is to leave the power on, pitch up 30 degrees, and hold that
until the airspeed drops to 65 knots. Then I kick full left rudder and
do a flat hammer head style turn while leaving the elevator in a
neutral position to unload the wings to prevent a stall. I also use
just enough aileron to keep the roll angle under control. The result
is that I come out 180 degrees from my original heading and level out
at the same altitude that I started at. The turn radius is very tight.

Dean

swag wrote:

Any body notice that CNN quoted the NTSB last nite as saying that the
parachute had been thermally deployed?

The key word here is "thermally." Think about it.


Matt