Wearing a G-1 Flight Jacket Off Base?

"Justin Broderick" wrote in message

Once upon a time all the Navy and Marines wore brown shoes. When the
navy
switched to black shoes, to better go with the white, and blue,
uniforms,
aviation remained with brown shoes. One of the reasons given and the one
that makes the most sense to me was because aviators in both the Navy
and
Marines wore the Marine green uniform, refered to as "Working Green".

Actually the black shoes were first.

Concur.

When green and khaki uniforms were
authorized for aviators in WW1, they had brown shoes to go with them.

There are some very nice photos in the archives of the NAVAIR Museum showing
early aviators wearing russet riding boots that they probably obtained from
their nearest Army Cavalry officer neighbor (the Army having shifted from
black to russet about the time of the Spanish-American War). I would bet a
dollar to a donut that this is the origin of the brown shoe.

It was also in fashion in those days to wear jodpurs, paddock boots, and
half-chaps. I believe I have seen that, too.

More than one Army officer in those days swapped his horse for a flying
machine. That he might have taken some of his gear with him is pretty
logical. That other services might have copied it is also logical (why
re-invent the wheel?).

They also have some very interesting photos of flight crew both afloat and
ashore which shows a really amazing variety of gear even within the same
organization. I suspect that this, more than anything else, must have given
'Shoe captains and admirals the vapors.

Just
before WW2 all officers and chiefs were allowed to wear the khaki working
uniform, but with their regular black shoes and brown shoes as an option.
Aviation officers, who also had the winter green uniform and tan overcoat,
were required to have brown shoes. Most non-aviation officers went with
the
minimum required kit and wore their black shoes with khaki, and a whole
tradition grew up around it.

Can't comment on this, as I have not reviewed either the photos of the day
or the Uniform Regs of the day!g

Bill Kambic

If, by any act, error, or omission, I have, intentionally or
unintentionally, displayed any breedist, disciplinist, sexist, racist,
culturalist, nationalist, regionalist, localist, ageist, lookist, ableist,
sizeist, speciesist, intellectualist, socioeconomicist, ethnocentrist,
phallocentrist, heteropatriarchalist, or other violation of the rules of
political correctness, known or unknown, I am not sorry and I encourage you
to get over it.

My knowledge of Service slang is strictly UK-based, crabs and
pongoes and all that.
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

OK, Peter, turn about is fair play! What the hell are crabs, pongoes,
and Ying tong iddle-i po!

vince norris

Once upon a time all the Navy and Marines wore brown shoes.

More precisely, at least when I was in, 1946-47 and 51-54, marines
wore cordovan shoes. So dark brown they could pass for black. Worn
with dress blues as well a greens and khakis.

When I became a Midshipman, V-5 (aviation cadet) in 1949, we were
issued black shoes to wear with khakis, whites, and blues.

I believe in late 1963/early 1964 the Marines changed to black shoes.

Last marine I saw, a couple of years ago, was wearing cordovan shoes.

vince norris

"Justin Broderick" wrote in message k.net...
"R" wrote in message
m...

Once upon a time all the Navy and Marines wore brown shoes. When the navy
switched to black shoes, to better go with the white, and blue, uniforms,
aviation remained with brown shoes. One of the reasons given and the one
that makes the most sense to me was because aviators in both the Navy and
Marines wore the Marine green uniform, refered to as "Working Green".

Actually the black shoes were first. When green and khaki uniforms were
authorized for aviators in WW1, they had brown shoes to go with them. Just
before WW2 all officers and chiefs were allowed to wear the khaki working
uniform, but with their regular black shoes and brown shoes as an option.
Aviation officers, who also had the winter green uniform and tan overcoat,
were required to have brown shoes. Most non-aviation officers went with the
minimum required kit and wore their black shoes with khaki, and a whole
tradition grew up around it.

--Justin

Greens, khakis, and Brown Shoes . . . more than you ever wanted to
know:

When the USN got into the aviation business (circa 1910) there was no
special uniform designated for aviators. When flying the early pilots
generally wore civilian clothes as they were more practical. In those
days the standard ‘‘workday' uniform for officers was either service
dress blues or service dress whites, both terms that have survived to
today. The service dress blues were, in design, not unlike the dress
blouse worn today at places like West Point, VMI or Citadel except
they were navy blue (not black) wool with gold sleeve stripes as
appropriate and collar brass of the rank insignia and an anchor (the
collar devices went away with the 1913 regulations). The service dress
whites were not terribly different from those worn today, a high
collar cotton duck blouse with shoulder boards as appropriate and gold
buttons. Eventually it was quickly recognized that officers involved
in aviation had a disgusting tendency to get their hands and clothes
quite filthy and that the effect on the service dress uniforms was
unacceptable to the powers above ... nor could they have the dashing
airmen running around in civilian clothes.

Unofficially, the pattern had already been set. As early as the winter
of 1912-1913 naval aviators adopted the khaki of their Marine
counterparts, wearing Marine Corps breeches and leather puttees as
permitted in the Marines' 1912 regulation change and dying their
service whites and covers of their white service caps to match. This
uniform was also worn during the Veracruz affair of 1914 and is the
beginnings of khaki use in the USN. In June 1917, this unofficial
uniform became official with the change of wrapped wool replacing the
leather puttees (which, of course, meant to wear leather puttees was,
as we would say today, a measure of cool). Officers could also wear
khaki trousers instead of breeches and were also authorized a khaki
shirt. To prevent the uniform from becoming overly soiled, a one piece
overall of khaki canvas could be worn to protect it. As with the then
Marine custom, brown shoes were worn, thus aviators became "Brown
Shoes" and everyone else were "Black Shoes."

By September 1917 it was recognized that while the khaki uniform was
satisfactory for summer, it would be rather uncomfortable in winter.
Thus "Aviation Greens" came into existence. The color was defined as
Marine Corps Forest Green. This uniform was cut in the pattern of the
service dress whites and was made of wool with dark brown buttons.
There were breast pockets and shoulder boards were required. Brown
shoes were required. A month later, a forest green overcoat was
authorized and the khaki and green uniforms were further authorized
for wear by officers assigned to aviation command who were not
aviators.

All was not roses, however. The 1922 regulations abolished special
uniforms for aviators effective 1 July 1923, leaving the aviators with
service blues (now changed to close to the style we know today) and
service whites. All was not lost, though, two years later, the
"working" aviation uniforms were reinstated. They were now single
breasted, four pocket, and roll collared; a khaki shirt with black tie
was required for both khakis and greens. The buttons were black.
Breeches with brown leather puttees were authorized as were trousers
to be worn with brown shoes. Rank was denoted by black mohair sleeve
stripes. Khaki's were authorized for submariners (who also had the
disgusting tendency to inordinately dirty their uniforms) in 1931 and
pin on rank devices were authorized for both uniforms at the same
time.

In February 1941, khakis were authorized for all officers has a
working uniform at the discretion of the commanding officer. In April
1941 a final change was made to the khaki uniform when sleeve stripes
were no longer authorized and shoulder boards were mandated; buttons
were changed from dark brown to gold. With slight variation (for
example, breeches puttees eventually went away in the mid 1930's)
these uniforms worn by the USN in World War II and are used today.

During the war Fleet Admiral EJ King designed a grey uniform that he
proposed to be all purpose, eliminating khaki and the service dress
blues (which he felt, reportedly, were too much like the Royal Navy).
Never a popular uniform and generally only worn in King's presence or
in East Coast commands where he was likely to appear, it barely
survived his tenure and was no longer authorized after 1948.

For a brief time in the 1980's aviation greens were not authorized and
the use of brown shoes with khakis was likewise done away with, but in
recent years greens have made a comeback and are authorized to be worn
with brown shoes.

Regards,

Rich

"Justin Broderick" wrote in message k.net...
"R" wrote in message
m...

Once upon a time all the Navy and Marines wore brown shoes. When the navy
switched to black shoes, to better go with the white, and blue, uniforms,
aviation remained with brown shoes. One of the reasons given and the one
that makes the most sense to me was because aviators in both the Navy and
Marines wore the Marine green uniform, refered to as "Working Green".

Actually the black shoes were first. When green and khaki uniforms were
authorized for aviators in WW1, they had brown shoes to go with them. Just
before WW2 all officers and chiefs were allowed to wear the khaki working
uniform, but with their regular black shoes and brown shoes as an option.
Aviation officers, who also had the winter green uniform and tan overcoat,
were required to have brown shoes. Most non-aviation officers went with the
minimum required kit and wore their black shoes with khaki, and a whole
tradition grew up around it.

--Justin

Greens, khakis, and Brown Shoes . . . more than you ever wanted to
know:

When the USN got into the aviation business (circa 1910) there was no
special uniform designated for aviators. When flying the early pilots
generally wore civilian clothes as they were more practical. In those
days the standard ‘‘workday' uniform for officers was either service
dress blues or service dress whites, both terms that have survived to
today. The service dress blues were, in design, not unlike the dress
blouse worn today at places like West Point, VMI or Citadel except
they were navy blue (not black) wool with gold sleeve stripes as
appropriate and collar brass of the rank insignia and an anchor (the
collar devices went away with the 1913 regulations). The service dress
whites were not terribly different from those worn today, a high
collar cotton duck blouse with shoulder boards as appropriate and gold
buttons. Eventually it was quickly recognized that officers involved
in aviation had a disgusting tendency to get their hands and clothes
quite filthy and that the effect on the service dress uniforms was
unacceptable to the powers above ... nor could they have the dashing
airmen running around in civilian clothes.

Unofficially, the pattern had already been set. As early as the winter
of 1912-1913 naval aviators adopted the khaki of their Marine
counterparts, wearing Marine Corps breeches and leather puttees as
permitted in the Marines' 1912 regulation change and dying their
service whites and covers of their white service caps to match. This
uniform was also worn during the Veracruz affair of 1914 and is the
beginnings of khaki use in the USN. In June 1917, this unofficial
uniform became official with the change of wrapped wool replacing the
leather puttees (which, of course, meant to wear leather puttees was,
as we would say today, a measure of cool). Officers could also wear
khaki trousers instead of breeches and were also authorized a khaki
shirt. To prevent the uniform from becoming overly soiled, a one piece
overall of khaki canvas could be worn to protect it. As with the then
Marine custom, brown shoes were worn, thus aviators became "Brown
Shoes" and everyone else were "Black Shoes."

By September 1917 it was recognized that while the khaki uniform was
satisfactory for summer, it would be rather uncomfortable in winter.
Thus "Aviation Greens" came into existence. The color was defined as
Marine Corps Forest Green. This uniform was cut in the pattern of the
service dress whites and was made of wool with dark brown buttons.
There were breast pockets and shoulder boards were required. Brown
shoes were required. A month later, a forest green overcoat was
authorized and the khaki and green uniforms were further authorized
for wear by officers assigned to aviation command who were not
aviators.

All was not roses, however. The 1922 regulations abolished special
uniforms for aviators effective 1 July 1923, leaving the aviators with
service blues (now changed to close to the style we know today) and
service whites. All was not lost, though, two years later, the
"working" aviation uniforms were reinstated. They were now single
breasted, four pocket, and roll collared; a khaki shirt with black tie
was required for both khakis and greens. The buttons were black.
Breeches with brown leather puttees were authorized as were trousers
to be worn with brown shoes. Rank was denoted by black mohair sleeve
stripes. Khaki's were authorized for submariners (who also had the
disgusting tendency to inordinately dirty their uniforms) in 1931 and
pin on rank devices were authorized for both uniforms at the same
time.

In February 1941, khakis were authorized for all officers has a
working uniform at the discretion of the commanding officer. In April
1941 a final change was made to the khaki uniform when sleeve stripes
were no longer authorized and shoulder boards were mandated; buttons
were changed from dark brown to gold. With slight variation (for
example, breeches puttees eventually went away in the mid 1930's)
these uniforms worn by the USN in World War II and are used today.

During the war Fleet Admiral EJ King designed a grey uniform that he
proposed to be all purpose, eliminating khaki and the service dress
blues (which he felt, reportedly, were too much like the Royal Navy).
Never a popular uniform and generally only worn in King's presence or
in East Coast commands where he was likely to appear, it barely
survived his tenure and was no longer authorized after 1948.

For a brief time in the 1980's aviation greens were not authorized and
the use of brown shoes with khakis was likewise done away with, but in
recent years greens have made a comeback and are authorized to be worn
with brown shoes.

Regards,

Rich

"vincent p. norris" wrote in message
...
Once upon a time all the Navy and Marines wore brown shoes.

More precisely, at least when I was in, 1946-47 and 51-54, marines
wore cordovan shoes. So dark brown they could pass for black. Worn
with dress blues as well a greens and khakis.

When I became a Midshipman, V-5 (aviation cadet) in 1949, we were
issued black shoes to wear with khakis, whites, and blues.

I believe in late 1963/early 1964 the Marines changed to black shoes.

Last marine I saw, a couple of years ago, was wearing cordovan shoes.

vince norris

During my time in the USMCR (57-59) enlisted wore brown, officers wore
cordovan and all wore brown boots. Sharp dressed Marines enlisted personnel
would put a light coat of black polish on their dress shoes occasionally, to
make them look better with a kind of "highlighted effect", but if you
overdid it, the Gunny would see that you were occupied after hours with
saddle soap taking it down to bare leather and starting over again.

I am pretty sure that they changed to all black in late 63. During my time
in the Navy, I spent a year (actually 16 months) with the Marines in ANLICO
and all the Marines at Camp Lejeune NC wore black shoes and boots, and dirty
boots in Vietnam (1966) . From 73-94, I didn't really look that close, but
the Marines around the Navy Annex, and Pentagon wore black shoes.

Sometime in the 90's they started wearing brown boots again. I have seen
Marines almost every day since I retired from DOD in 94, and they all wear
black shoes. Today boots can be black with the old style Woodland camo
uniform or brown with the new type computer generated camo pattern uniform.
I haven't asked, so I don't know if black bots can be worn with the new
camo, or if brown boots can be worn with old camo. And I have no idea what
color boots are appropriate to wear with the new camo, and the Gor-Tex
Woodland Extreme Weather Parka.

Red Rider

Sh*t! the next thing you know a person in the US Armed Forces will have to
have a butler to get properly dressed.

In article , vincent p.
norris writes
My knowledge of Service slang is strictly UK-based, crabs and
pongoes and all that.
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

OK, Peter, turn about is fair play! What the hell are crabs, pongoes,
and Ying tong iddle-i po!

vince norris

The Royal Navy refers to the RAF as Crabair and RAF personnel as crabs.
The RAF, and possibly the RN, refer to the army as pongoes or brown
jobs. My Dad, a retired Territorial Army officer, was a little peeved
when I decided when at school to join the Air Training Corps, and
muttered things about "bloody Brylcreem Boys", which was a bit WW2.

"Ying tong iddle-i po" is the title of a song from The Goon Show, a BBC
radio comedy series first broadcast from 1952 to 1960. The original
participants were Spike Milligan and Harry Secombe (both ex Royal
Artillery), Peter Sellers, of whom you may have heard, and Michael
Bentine (both ex RAF). The programme was irreverent and surreal (written
by Spike) and was a revolution in British comedy. Without the Goons,
Monty Python's Flying Circus might never have come about, and their
influence can clearly be seen in it.. People of a certain age, such as
the Prince of Wales and me, grew up listening to the Goons and were
profoundly warp^h^h^h affected by them.

Needle nardle noo!
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

Peter Twydell wrote:
"Ying tong iddle-i po" is the title of a song from The Goon Show, a BBC
radio comedy series first broadcast from 1952 to 1960. The original
participants were Spike Milligan and Harry Secombe (both ex Royal
Artillery), Peter Sellers, of whom you may have heard, and Michael
Bentine (both ex RAF).

And don't forget Dudley Moore!

--
John Miller
My email address: Domain, n4vu.com; username, jsm

.... I'm IMAGINING a sensuous GIRAFFE, CAVORTING in the BACK ROOM of a KOSHER
DELI --

Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal wrote:

One thing that always amazes me... most of the flight boots I see look more
like hicking/hunting boots than anything else? In this day and age, why not
use something lighter and that allows for a finer feel and touch?
_____________
José Herculano


José,

Standard answer is that the boot is designed more for what happens before
and after the flight (especially if there are more takeoffs than landings)
than for what it does in the airplane.

Ah yes. There was the time we had the wrestling match in front of the
fountain at the Rosey Roads O Club, and ended up in said fountain with
bag and boots on. For the dawn launch the next day, tossed the sneakers
in the helmet bag, and put them on once ensconced in E-2 cockpit (boots
still soaking wet). Flew the hop in my go-fasters. Forgot to swap back
after landing, and drew many odd stares from the E's during post-flight
walkaround.

It was interesting, flying with sneakers. The boots really muffle a lot
of the feedback you can get from your pedals.

In article , John Miller writes
Peter Twydell wrote:
"Ying tong iddle-i po" is the title of a song from The Goon Show, a BBC
radio comedy series first broadcast from 1952 to 1960. The original
participants were Spike Milligan and Harry Secombe (both ex Royal
Artillery), Peter Sellers, of whom you may have heard, and Michael
Bentine (both ex RAF).

And don't forget Dudley Moore!

Certainly unforgettable, an extremely clever and talented man, but he
was never a Goon.
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!