Capt. Al Haynes sorta OT.

Richard Hertz wrote:

Most teachers I know are out the door long before then.

burn out

Also, most other salaried professionals work longer hours than teachers for
no extra pay either, so the gripes about extra take-home work falls on
uncaring ears.

True, but most of my salaried friends make 2X or 3X what I make.

The bottom line is - there are plenty of qualified people lined up to take
the teaching jobs at the current salary levels. Even when unemployment is
at historic lows this is the case.

REALLY?!?!? Send them to Northern VA where we had lots of unfilled positions
last year with subs filling in. For quite a while 1/3 of our special ed
teachers were on emergengy certificates. We can't find enough teachers to fill
the rooms.


I oppose all those government gravy pensions. (Military/combat service
excluded)

One other big problem is the non-meritocracy of government/school systems.
Pay is based on years of service and so-called education credits. In the
"real" world pay is based on performance, merit, etc.

Most of the problems lie with the administrations and the general concept of
"free" or public/government run education.

"Margy Natalie" wrote in message
...
Yeah, teachers only work 195 days a year (but they are only paid for 195
days a
year). Work 7 hours???!!?!?! For the past 3 years my New Year's
Resolution
was to leave school before 6PM (I get there at 7:30), I usually stuck with
it
until almost late January :-). The retirement is usually decent if you
stick
with it for 30 or 35 years as opposed to the federal government or
military
where you get a good pension at 20.

Margy

Richard Hertz wrote:

Yeah, but they only have to work 180 days out of the year and work only
7
hour days and then get retirement plans that are killing the tax payers.

"Stu Gotts" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 13:59:54 GMT, "Matthew S. Whiting"
wrote:

wrote:

Jay Honeck wrote:


Capt. Haynes is a retired airline captain, and a sought-after
speaker
on the
mashed-potato circuit. As such he should set for life, and pretty
much
rolling in money.


There are some retired TWA pilots that need to work to make ends
meet.
There
are some recently retired pilots from "reorganized" carriers who
have
lost a
good portion of their retirement.

That is truly infortunate, but I have a hard time feeling too sorry
for
folks that made well over $100K/year and didn't sock away a little on
their own for retirement. I make less than most senior airline
pilots
and I'm not planning on having SS be available when I retire nor my
company pension. If one or both are still there, that will be
gravey.


Then, there's those overpaid school teachers in California who
retire
at 100%,
get COLA increases from a bankrupt state, and who are rolling in
dough.~

I'm not familiar with CA (thankfully!), but in most states teachers
make
a LOT less than airline pilots.

And put up with mounds more bull**** for about 10 hours a day and at
least 20 days out of the month.

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote:


One other big problem is the non-meritocracy of government/school systems.
Pay is based on years of service and so-called education credits. In the
"real" world pay is based on performance, merit, etc.

Yes, that is my biggest beef with the teaching system at present. And
the fact that it is unionized. I don't believe that "professional" and
"union" go together, but then many pilots are union also...


I'm in a "right to work" State so Union doesn't mean anything. The real reason
teachers don't have a merit system is they discovered it was detrimental to the
students. Right now if I write a lesson that really clicks and works great I
make copies and give it to all the other teachers. We help each other out to
give the best to our kids. Under merit pay (which many districts had for a
while) teachers would keep their best lessons to themselves so they could be in
the top 5% to get the raise. It didn't work. Another problem is how to score
teachers to rank them.

Margy

Ben Haas wrote:

Margy Natalie wrote in message ...
Yeah, teachers only work 195 days a year (but they are only paid for 195 days a
year). Work 7 hours???!!?!?! For the past 3 years my New Year's Resolution
was to leave school before 6PM (I get there at 7:30), I usually stuck with it
until almost late January :-). The retirement is usually decent if you stick
with it for 30 or 35 years as opposed to the federal government or military
where you get a good pension at 20.

Margy


Can you share with all of use out in the Internet world your views of
tenure. In the REAL world most of us are judged on performance. As a
contractor, machinist and all the other things I do I get paid for
doing the job right, not because I went through a probationary period
and during that time, laid low, crossed all my T's and dotted my I's
and was awarded a lifetime of " get out of jail free" clause in my
contract. Your answer is awaited.

Tenure isn't always all it's cracked up to be either. I'll admit some teachers
shouldn't be teaching, but they aren't usually the ones the administration wants to do
away with. We have "continuing contracts" rather than tenure and it is hard to get rid
of someone without cause. Of course I do know of a teacher who taught 6th grade for
many years (maybe too many) and when the administration decided they no longer needed
that person they were moved to 1st grade (shape up or ship out). Administrations are
very good at trimming the dead wood if they want to, but it usually takes a full year of
torture.

Margy

I would be happy to. I am qualified to teach math. I don't see what all
the fuss is about.

Granted the pay is less than other jobs, but the benefits far outweigh the
difference in pay.

I am not wrong about the supply of teachers. I know many - some friends,
other family. I also know administrators whom have told me about the local
supply/demand.

I agree there is a shortage of math/science but the ridiculous gov't system
won't budge on silly school credentials to teach, so I have to go through
the BS of a Masters and get "education" education before I can teach.

I have done research about this and would not be changing careers if I
hadn't. It is a sweet deal that teachers have - trust me.


"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Richard Hertz" wrote

The bottom line is - there are plenty of qualified people lined up to
take
the teaching jobs at the current salary levels.

You are so far out in left field, I only will make a couple comments. You
are completely wrong about the supply of teachers. Perhaps there are
surplus numbers in elementary and humanities, but it is almost impossible
to
find science and math teachers who are well qualified, and gets harder
every
year.

Teacher's salaries have grown at under the cost of living, under
inflation,
and has meant less disposable income, even when taking into account pay
raises for each years service. Not too many professions can claim that
proud distinction.

Come take my teaching job. See how you like it. You won't last a year.
--
Jim in NC

Thank you - someone with real numbers. I have done similar investigating
here and the differential for salaries here on Long Island NY is also not as
bad as teachers complain. While taxpayers are facing layoffs and no raises,
the school districts around here are still doing the usual raises.


"Newps" wrote in message
news:dFnLb.1747$8H.8088@attbi_s03...
A year ago December the teachers in our district went on strike for
better pay and benefits. The conventional wisdom is that your typical
public school teacher is lucky to make $30K after many hard years of
teaching. Since teachers salaries are a matter of public record a full
page ad was taken out in the Sunday paper the first weekend of the
strike. Every teacher in the school district was listed, by name, and
how much they made for that current school year. Turns out the average
teacher salary is $41.5 here with 25-30% of the teachers making more
than $50K per year. Starting pay was mid $20's. You could literally
see the support for the teachers evaporate on that Sunday. A settlement
was reached shortly there after. A teacher strike will not ever happen
here again.


Morgans wrote:

"Richard Hertz" wrote

The bottom line is - there are plenty of qualified people lined up to
take
the teaching jobs at the current salary levels.


You are so far out in left field, I only will make a couple comments.
You
are completely wrong about the supply of teachers. Perhaps there are
surplus numbers in elementary and humanities, but it is almost
impossible to
find science and math teachers who are well qualified, and gets harder
every
year.

Teacher's salaries have grown at under the cost of living, under
inflation,
and has meant less disposable income, even when taking into account pay
raises for each years service. Not too many professions can claim that
proud distinction.

Come take my teaching job. See how you like it. You won't last a year.

"Richard Hertz" wrote

The bottom line is - there are plenty of qualified people lined up to take
the teaching jobs at the current salary levels.

You are so far out in left field, I only will make a couple comments. You
are completely wrong about the supply of teachers. Perhaps there are
surplus numbers in elementary and humanities, but it is almost impossible to
find science and math teachers who are well qualified, and gets harder every
year.

Teacher's salaries have grown at under the cost of living, under inflation,
and has meant less disposable income, even when taking into account pay
raises for each years service. Not too many professions can claim that
proud distinction.

Come take my teaching job. See how you like it. You won't last a year.
--
Jim in NC

"TTA Cherokee Driver" wrote in message
...
Paul Sengupta wrote:

"TTA Cherokee Driver" wrote in message
...


they often cite "170 days a week..."

Even that is not accurate, when stated correctly. In NC, we have students
for 180 days, with 20 more added for planning and training.
--
Jim in NC--
Jim in NC

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Richard Hertz" wrote

Thank you - someone with real numbers. I have done similar
investigating
here and the differential for salaries here on Long Island NY is also
not
as
bad as teachers complain. While taxpayers are facing layoffs and no
raises,
the school districts around here are still doing the usual raises.
**************************************************

New York isn't NC, or many of the other states.

New York isn't a grapefruit either. What the hell has that got to do with
anything?


What is the rank of NY, in relation to the whole country, Richard?

Rank in what?


I'm not going to bother to look it up, since it will not change your mind.
I've made my invitation, to you, and any others. Come to NC and teach math
or science. You said you were changing careers. Put your money where your
mouth is. Until then shut up. Back up those claims. Good luck with you
being one of the 60k earners! It shouldn't be any risk, if you are so
sure
of your claims.

I can care less about the salary, I am going in it for the benefits and the
vacation. I don;t need the money.



Figures lie, and liars figure. Come live the life.

Oh, by the way, how many of those 50 - 60k teachers had doctorates? What
would a doctorate of psychology make in the same area? It is about the
same
level of education.

Doctors of psych? I doubt they make much. Not worth the degree, that is
for sure.


I'm done defending teachers. We don't deserve the bashing, and surely
don't
need it..

I am not bashing teachers - there is nothing to defend. I am going to be
one. What I am trying to point out is that teachers are paid fairly.

--
Jim in NC

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Richard Hertz" wrote in message
. net...
I would be happy to. I am qualified to teach math. I don't see what
all
the fuss is about.

So you have not taught , even for a year yet?

No - Just substitute teaching in publlic and private schools.


Granted the pay is less than other jobs, but the benefits far outweigh
the
difference in pay.

Hardly. Live on the pay of two teachers, send 2 or more kids to college,
and drive less than 10 year old vehicles, and then come back and tell me
haw
the benifits out weigh the lack of pay. Don't forget that every year,
your
dollar earned will not keep up with inflation.

Ahh, now we get to it - the cars (and other spending) are the issues
financially. I have never driven a car that was made within 10 years of my
owning it. I live within my means and am able to budget. The benefits
a - retirement that is second to very few occupations - health insurace
the same, and I know of few jobs in this economy where people are keeping up
with inflation. My raise the past two years in the IT industry has been 1%
each year. The benefits (in my priority system a Over 13 weeks of time
off and health benefits and pensions. To some that might not be enough, but
after being in the IT world I have changed priorities and money is less
important than free time. (I also want to teach as I am appalled at the bad
education I see around me and want to help fix it. My tutoring, while
admittedly harly qualifies as insight into my ability to teach classes, has
been rewarding for me and the kids I help.


I am not wrong about the supply of teachers. I know many - some
friends,
other family. I also know administrators whom have told me about the
local
supply/demand.

Not in MY state, or most of the country.

Hmm, I see many many people qualified to teach English, SS, grade school,
etc. the only shortage appears to be in math and science.


I agree there is a shortage of math/science

Then there is a shortage.

Then those salaries should be raised to meet market demand.


but the ridiculous gov't system
won't budge on silly school credentials to teach, so I have to go
through
the BS of a Masters and get "education" education before I can teach.

In NC, you can start teaching tomorrow, and take the required corses as
you
go.

Thanks for the info. I might consider a move down there.


And also, are you so smug, as to think you have nothing to learn about
the
buisness of education? School law, liability, discipline, motivational
techniques, lesson planning, pacing guides, government program
implementations, advanced learners, slow learners, and the list goes on.
You really need to know about all of that, and more. You can no more jump
into teaching and be successful, than you could jump into a plane, take
off,
do a cross country, end up where you want to be, and land successfully.

No, I am not that smug, but I have serious doubts about many of the
professional educators who have dumbed down NY state's curriculum and
constantly teach for tests, and spend money on "technology" while the kids'
basic educations are forgotten. From my experience I think I would choose a
private school over a public school.



Come to NC. We really do need lateral entry math teachers. You might
learn something in the process, and theer is a small chance the students
could, too.

Nice backhanded compliment.

--
Jim in NC

I have done research about this and would not be changing careers if I
hadn't. It is a sweet deal that teachers have - trust me.



"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Richard Hertz" wrote

The bottom line is - there are plenty of qualified people lined up
to
take
the teaching jobs at the current salary levels.

You are so far out in left field, I only will make a couple comments.
You
are completely wrong about the supply of teachers. Perhaps there are
surplus numbers in elementary and humanities, but it is almost
impossible
to
find science and math teachers who are well qualified, and gets harder
every
year.

Teacher's salaries have grown at under the cost of living, under
inflation,
and has meant less disposable income, even when taking into account
pay
raises for each years service. Not too many professions can claim
that
proud distinction.

Come take my teaching job. See how you like it. You won't last a
year.
--
Jim in NC

"Margy Natalie" wrote

"Many true tidbits"

Margy, some people have been told by the media that the problems in
education are all the school's fault for so long, they believe it.

The situation is as bad as the poor reporting about aviation by the media,
and the general public is as poorly educated, and believes all the
mis-information they hear.

When you look at the students with good parents, with firm discipline, who
make sure the studies are number one, you see students who excel. John Q.
Publick thinks we should educate everyone to the same level, no matter the
IQ. or the devotion to learning. He will never think we deserve a raise or
better support until the results.

They need to look at the student to see where the problem is, but that
will never happen. You are wasting your breath.

John Q, tell us how to make the student care, and have the desire to be more
than mediocre. Do that, and scores will come. If you think we have bad
teachers, get the wages up so the best don't leave; then we can work on
getting the few "bad teachers" up to standard. It can't work the other way,
because there is no one any better to take their place. See the catch 22?