Why is Soaring declining

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 11:22:58 -0600, "F.L. Whiteley"
wrote:


"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
.. .
On 26 Apr 2004 21:19:48 -0700, (Michael) wrote:

I have nothing against the L-23; it's a perfectly acceptable primary
trainer. However, for soaring flight I think the 1-26 (or better yet
a Ka-8) makes a far better glider.

Add the SZD Junior to this list - I know there are only 5 in the USA,
but they are more common elsewhere..

8 at the moment.


That's good news.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

Good post. I hope it doesn't get buried beneath the hundreds of
Lennie-related bloviations in this thread.

(John Seaborn) wrote in message . com...
While growth in soaring is a world wide problem, what follows is a USA
centric viewpoint. First, believe growth can be accomplished. There is
so much negative talk about growing the sport, so many splintered
ideas that it seems like making a real difference in the trend can
only be done by magic. Its also safe to say what we are doing now is
not making a big long term difference in the members trend line.

Any marketing person worth their salt can come up with 50-100 easy,
affordable and effective ways to grow soaring. The biggest obstacle to
growing the sport is that there is no one with the background needed
responsible on a day-to-day basis for this activity in the USA - with
a budget to get things done. Volunteers can't do the job, it has to be
a paid activity as it requires much more focus and longevity than what
can be expected out of a volunteer effort. No budget means no real
action.

Growth in soaring happens at the local FBO and Club level. A simple
pull strategy is what is needed. With pull marketing the objective is
to pull "customers" into the established retail selling points. The
sport already has a great "product", and established "retailers" in
the form of clubs and commercial operators, but no focused long-term
strategy to pull the right customers into these retail centers.

Step one is to form a triad between the clubs, commercial operators
and the promotion team around the idea that Promotion will be
developing opportunities to pull customers into their retail
locations. It is critical to separate the thrill a minute ride
customer that you never see again from the "want to learn to soar"
customer. Its also critical that once the customers show at the
retailer they get a warm reception. Develop several "entry" points
that are inviting to potential members. For example, a First Flight
Certificate printable off the SSA Web Site redeemable at any
participating club or FBO. A targeted direct mail campaign to target
demo and psychographics within x miles of participating retailers, a
1-800 number that can answer customer questions and direct them to
their nearest retailer, a First Flight Kit that can be sent to
prospects, cooperative marketing with other aviation organizations
like AOPA and EAA, an First Flight invitation letter to every retiring
airline pilot, First Flight coupons in magazines and Sporty's, a First
Flight video with 800 number and web address shown before targeted
movies, promotion of the sport in film, print and web featuring First
Flight information... you get the idea. Develop and refine a pull
program, work it for a couple of years and see what happens. A final
note, while many think youth is the future of our sport I think that
35-55 year olds with time, money and interest are the future of our
sport.

How to pay for this strategy is a good topic for RAS.

John Seaborn

"ADP" wrote in message ...
I prefer top posting. Since I'm a snipper, my suggestion: If you don't like
top posting don't read my posts.

Allan


See below:

"The Lion's Grove: Ramblings: Top Posting: The Source Of All Evil?

'Kay, so I'm reading the newsgroups. Yeah, I know. I generally dislike
them because they seem to be only good for flamewars, but I've been
extremely bored lately, and it's something to pass the time.

In the rare instances that legitimate topics are actually discussed,
there will come along a person who wants to contribute to the conversation
and will post the information at the top of the message, known as
"top-posting." And of course, this person will be jumped on, ridiculed,
humiliated, beat about the head and shoulders with a salami, and generally
be made to feel very unwelcome.

I've just read another of these threads. One person top-posted and
there followed a coupla dozen posts saying how it is poor netiquette, how it
is generally accepted practice not to do so, and one giving a link to a list
of FAQs explaining how it has been decided this should be so. There were
messages saying that the top-posting person "violated the social morays[sic]
of the group" and should basically conform to their standards because it is
somehow more polite. There was also much unnecessary name-calling and
insults directed at people who are different.

[*Note: I'm really having to fight the urge to go off on a rant about
how "morays" should be spelled "mores" and the fact that if people aren't
familiar with a word and its use, they shouldn't be throwing the damn thing
around. A "moray" is, in fact, an eel and of course should never be
violated. "Mores" are social norms taken so seriously that laws tend to be
created based on them. Oh wait...]

I don't understand what the big deal is. I actually like it when
people top-post. Reading through hundreds of messages goes by much faster
when I can see at a glance what's being said without having to constantly

I think that replies should be inserted at random points within the
quoted text. My reasoning is explained below.

scroll through the entire message. I don't get all huffy and insult the
person. I move on to the next message and continue with my reading. Why is
it so difficult for others to do the same?

Went and found a site that gives some admittedly good reasons why
folks should not top-post. I'm going to use these from
http://www.blakjak.demon.co.uk/gey_stv0.htm cuz they're a lot shorter and to
the point than most other sites.

"First, top posters tend never to snip, never to shorten that to which
they reply. So people whose download time costs money are wasting money
downloading enormous lengths of stuff they have already read."

This I can understand. But it is the lack of snippage that should be
addressed.

"Second, and connected, is that you do not know with top posting
whether someone has written something else later on, so do you waste your
time going through it?"

Is this really a problem? Isn't it usually pretty obvious that the
poster has said all he has intended to say? if he hasn't attached his
top-posted comments directly to a portion of the previous post, what makes
you think he's going to do it further along in the message? And is it really
that big a deal to scroll down and check? You're going to scroll through
other messages anyway. But I guess a top-poster's messages are a waste of
time...

"Third, it is much easier to read things in order, and you can see
with good Netiquette how easily it flows."

This is usually followed by an insanely simple example which,
incidentally, could all use a bit of snipping for the "he wrote:, she
wrote:, bob wrote:, god wrote:" prefixes. Newsgroup posts are rarely that
simple, at least from what I've seen. It's usually more along the lines of:

[obscene amount of header crap left on so someone can show off their
"witty"
personalization]
[more header crap]
[still more header crap]
[and even more header crap]
Hi, my name is Lisa and I'm new to the group. I just wanted to
share that I just read
this great book on pasta, it's called "The Joy of Pasta." You
should really check it
out.
[no longer crossposted as this person finally got a clue]
I read that book and really like it too. I love the recipes!

Did I mention that Lennie is a jerk?

[crossposted to a dozen other completely unrelated newsgroups]
i'll show ya pasta baybeeee
[followed by a signature, usually trying to show how "l33t" the
poster is]
[also posted to the dozen other groups because the poster forgot to
take them off of
the To: field]
If you don't have anything productive to say, don't say anything at
all.
Oh, get off your high horse. By responding to them you're only
encouraging them. Get
over it.
[yada yada]
I look forward to being a part of the group!
[followed by long irritating signature]
Welcome to the group!
[followed by a signature]
Hope you like it here!
[followed by more signature]

Throw in some bad spelling, some obscenities from a troll, and some
bad formatting, and you've got a rather difficult message to read. Which
leads me to a) if you can understand that mess, a person posting at the top
shouldn't throw you off that much, and b) if you can't understand that mess,
what does it matter where the next person puts their message? You're not
gonna get it anyway. The main issue here is snippage. If people would just
learn to cut out all the irrelevent and unnecessary crap, there wouldn't be
any problems understanding where the message is going.

I think what it really comes down to is that people don't like when
someone comes in and disrupts their structured little world. Top-posting
isn't going to cause California to fall off into the ocean [yes, this would
be a bad thing, at least to the Californians], so why act like it will?"


.
2nd source:

"BUT not snipping is a far worse disease. If you read a five screen article,
and you like it, it is the height of selfishness to leave the whole five
screens while you add a single line to say how much you like it - and it
does not matter which end you put it, it is still very unfair on others and
shows a lack of respect for your fellow posters. You should leave in a
paragraph or two, not more, unless you are specifically referring to bits.
Then you leave in the bits to which you refer, and reply just after them.

So, please snip, that is vital, please do not top post, but that is not so
important."

"Liam Finley" wrote in message
om...
Good post. I hope it doesn't get buried beneath the hundreds of
Lennie-related bloviations in this thread.

(John Seaborn) wrote in message
. com...
While growth in soaring is a world wide problem, what follows is a USA
centric viewpoint. First, believe growth can be accomplished. There is
so much negative talk about growing the sport, so many splintered
ideas that it seems like making a real difference in the trend can
only be done by magic. Its also safe to say what we are doing now is
not making a big long term difference in the members trend line.

Any marketing person worth their salt can come up with 50-100 easy,
affordable and effective ways to grow soaring. The biggest obstacle to
growing the sport is that there is no one with the background needed
responsible on a day-to-day basis for this activity in the USA - with
a budget to get things done. Volunteers can't do the job, it has to be
a paid activity as it requires much more focus and longevity than what
can be expected out of a volunteer effort. No budget means no real
action.

Growth in soaring happens at the local FBO and Club level. A simple
pull strategy is what is needed. With pull marketing the objective is
to pull "customers" into the established retail selling points. The
sport already has a great "product", and established "retailers" in
the form of clubs and commercial operators, but no focused long-term
strategy to pull the right customers into these retail centers.

Step one is to form a triad between the clubs, commercial operators
and the promotion team around the idea that Promotion will be
developing opportunities to pull customers into their retail
locations. It is critical to separate the thrill a minute ride
customer that you never see again from the "want to learn to soar"
customer. Its also critical that once the customers show at the
retailer they get a warm reception. Develop several "entry" points
that are inviting to potential members. For example, a First Flight
Certificate printable off the SSA Web Site redeemable at any
participating club or FBO. A targeted direct mail campaign to target
demo and psychographics within x miles of participating retailers, a
1-800 number that can answer customer questions and direct them to
their nearest retailer, a First Flight Kit that can be sent to
prospects, cooperative marketing with other aviation organizations
like AOPA and EAA, an First Flight invitation letter to every retiring
airline pilot, First Flight coupons in magazines and Sporty's, a First
Flight video with 800 number and web address shown before targeted
movies, promotion of the sport in film, print and web featuring First
Flight information... you get the idea. Develop and refine a pull
program, work it for a couple of years and see what happens. A final
note, while many think youth is the future of our sport I think that
35-55 year olds with time, money and interest are the future of our
sport.

How to pay for this strategy is a good topic for RAS.

John Seaborn


Step one for funding. Deny the dues rebate to any SSA chapter that doesn't
meet a growth quota. Clubs with a stated "no-growth" or "limited
membership" policy don't even get to ask for a rebate. The funds thus
retained go to marketing.

Step two. Add a check box to the individual SSA membership renewal form
that contributes $5 of the annual membership fee to marketing soaring.

Step three. Ask (or require) business members to contribute $200 (or more)
to the marketing fund.

Step four. Reward individual SSA members who, during the preceding year,
are responsible for 10 new members by waiving their membership renewal fee.
Add a space on the SSA application form for the name of the SSA member who
recruited the new member. List the names of these "Star Recruiters" in
Soaring and ask the business members to offer them a discount on
merchandise, tows etc...

Step five. Create a reward for the most productive recruiter of the year to
be presented at the SSA convention.

Bill Daniels

soarski wrote:

Eric Greenwell wrote in message ...

f.blair wrote:

The L-13 is a great trainer, especially for spin training. Compared to a
1-26 it is certainly less nimble, but weighs about 2 X as much. The L-13
will take a student through any maneuver they need to learn about before you
let them solo.


In our area, the L13 has plenty of performance to make cross-country
flights, but the thought of retrieving it from a field discourages most
people from trying.



I think I remember a team that took it apart, or even put it together in 12 Minutes!

Dieter B
Having dismantled and re-assembled our much loved (and hated) L13 repeatedly I
must note that I have done a couple of very conservative cross countries in the
L13. But the thought of having to take it apart in a field in the dark and get
it secure on the trailer, and then re-assemble it again is enough to put any but
the most hardened masochist off. 12 minutes is about what it generally takes us
to line up the wings. Maybe we need practise, as we generally avoid rigging
anything, there is space in the hangar for them all.

Lots of fun for gentle aerobatics, and a good trainer but easy to rig she is not.

Bill Daniels wrote:

Step one for funding. Deny the dues rebate to any SSA chapter that doesn't
meet a growth quota. Clubs with a stated "no-growth" or "limited
membership" policy don't even get to ask for a rebate. The funds thus
retained go to marketing.

Step two. Add a check box to the individual SSA membership renewal form
that contributes $5 of the annual membership fee to marketing soaring.

Step three. Ask (or require) business members to contribute $200 (or more)
to the marketing fund.

Step four. Reward individual SSA members who, during the preceding year,
are responsible for 10 new members by waiving their membership renewal fee.

I wouldn't even set the bar that high: 5 new members would be quite an
achievement. Make it 3 members to get half off the dues.

Add a space on the SSA application form for the name of the SSA member who
recruited the new member. List the names of these "Star Recruiters" in
Soaring and ask the business members to offer them a discount on
merchandise, tows etc...


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Soaring is declining because the experience of flight is highly accessible.
It is more common to find young people in North America and Europe that have
flown somewhere on a jet, achieving FL350 or greater, than would be the
common youthful experience of many following RAS. I would expect that if I
were to survey the local high school, I would find more than 50% of the
students had flown at least once. In my HS days, this would have been
5-10%. Many of my generation fly because we seek the mystic of flight,
soaring being one of the venues. EAA has a whole host of greybeards,
because propellars have always been more accessible. Flying high, fast, and
far has been de-mystified for a much larger segment of my society. As a
result, I expect the number seeking to soar to be a lesser percentage. As
the population grows however, I also expect the total number of seekers to
grow. Now, how do we reach them?

Frank Whiteley

F.L. Whiteley wrote:
Soaring is declining because the experience of flight is highly accessible.
It is more common to find young people in North America and Europe that have
flown somewhere on a jet, achieving FL350 or greater, than would be the
common youthful experience of many following RAS. I would expect that if I
were to survey the local high school, I would find more than 50% of the
students had flown at least once. In my HS days, this would have been
5-10%. Many of my generation fly because we seek the mystic of flight,
soaring being one of the venues. EAA has a whole host of greybeards,
because propellars have always been more accessible. Flying high, fast, and
far has been de-mystified for a much larger segment of my society. As a
result, I expect the number seeking to soar to be a lesser percentage. As
the population grows however, I also expect the total number of seekers to
grow. Now, how do we reach them?

Frank, your general thesis is absolutely correct. We reach them by
concentrating on the group which you correctly describe as already
interested but not blase about the flight experience. These are not the
under thirties, they are the over-55s. Certainly in my country, this is
also the age group where the growth is occurring while the under
thirties are a shrinking group (both absolutely and relatively). I know
it will make many of our clubs unpalatable socially to a number of
younger enthusiasts but hey - we all have to suffer for our pleasures.

As you rightly point out, the EAA has an aged population - and that is
one of the most popular flying clubs ever. Does AOPA release membership
statistics broken down by age?

Graeme Cant

The airline marketing departments have unintentionally helped create this
problem by creating a "superman" aura around their pilots. By inference,
their message says all other pilots have lesser skills and it would be folly
for mere mortals to attempt flight by their own hand.

Yet, I think the interest in flying is still there. I haven't checked
recently, but first person flight simulators were the best selling computer
games on the market. Airshows are the best attended outdoor events of all.
It's hard to argue that a fairly large segment of the general public doesn't
have a fascination with flight.

I find it easy to elicit the interest of non pilots in the concept of
soaring. The problem arises when it is suggested that they, all by
themselves, could learn to take the controls and soar. To a degree, they
are right. Not everyone can learn to fly. The difficult part is to light a
spark in those that can learn.

I have long suspected that PC based Flight Simulators might be a key since
they are such a successful product. Most of these simulators are open
systems to the degree that new 'aircraft' can be designed for them.
Unfortunately, there is a dearth of really good simulated gliders.

There are a lot of really good computer people in this sport. If they built
some great simulated gliders that could be downloaded free from soaring web
sites along with a pitch that the real experience is available at their
local gliderport, we might see small but steady stream of real talent
showing up for lessons.

For those just taking rides, handing them a CD with flight sim 'gliders'
that matched what they just rode in might be a pretty good marketing tool
too.

Bill Daniels

"F.L. Whiteley" wrote in message
...
Soaring is declining because the experience of flight is highly
accessible.
It is more common to find young people in North America and Europe that
have
flown somewhere on a jet, achieving FL350 or greater, than would be the
common youthful experience of many following RAS. I would expect that if
I
were to survey the local high school, I would find more than 50% of the
students had flown at least once. In my HS days, this would have been
5-10%. Many of my generation fly because we seek the mystic of flight,
soaring being one of the venues. EAA has a whole host of greybeards,
because propellars have always been more accessible. Flying high, fast,
and
far has been de-mystified for a much larger segment of my society. As a
result, I expect the number seeking to soar to be a lesser percentage. As
the population grows however, I also expect the total number of seekers to
grow. Now, how do we reach them?

Frank Whiteley

"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 11:22:58 -0600, "F.L. Whiteley"
wrote:


"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
.. .
On 26 Apr 2004 21:19:48 -0700, (Michael) wrote:

I have nothing against the L-23; it's a perfectly acceptable primary
trainer. However, for soaring flight I think the 1-26 (or better yet
a Ka-8) makes a far better glider.

Add the SZD Junior to this list - I know there are only 5 in the USA,
but they are more common elsewhere..

8 at the moment.


That's good news.

--
It's also on my club's wish list.

Frank