Avgas availability

"Matt Barrow" wrote:
"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:
So you are admitting that you have no information. Great!


Shizam!!

Lets be clear, *you* are the one who has not posted any
useful information, and appears to have none.

People who want to play word games worthy only of 10 year olds
tend not to be well versed on much of anything...

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

On May 16, 8:18 am, "Matt Barrow"
wrote:

The fact is that U.S. refining capacity has been growing at about 1% a year
for the past decade - the equivalent of adding a mid-size refinery every
year. Since 1996, U.S. refiners have expanded capacity by more than 2
million barrels a day This is a remarkable achievement in the face of
environmental mandates setting new ethanol usage and low-sulfur
requirements.

But the last major refinery built in the U.S. was in Garyville, La., in 1976
and the ones we have are getting older, no matter how well they're
maintained.

I dont know about the rest of the country but I do know about
Louisiana. Right now you cannot go to a refinery complex on the
Southern Louisiana area and not see them doing MASSIVE expansion,
doubling sometimes tripling the refinery complex. From Norco/Avondale/
St. Rose near MSY (just south of it) up the river to L38 (Gonzalez)
where Sorento/Giesimer/Fina etc all the way to Baton Rouge (Port
Allen) the bulldozers and welders are working as we speak.

You mention Garyville. That is the Marathon Garyville refinery near
REserve airport. In the last year it has doubled its size and now is
set for at least a doubling of that size. They are 'as we speak"
clearing the old sugar cane fields for new "smokestacks". The
Chocktow is also expanding.

the "we have not built a new refinery since XXXX" sounds good but is
misleading.

Avgas in LA is cracked at the Sorento refinery near L38.

Robert
At St. James tank farm it has tripled since Katrina the number of
storage tanks.

In article ,
"Matt Barrow" wrote:

Think: principles

This requires long-term view of things and also integrative thought.

I agree.


Pragmatism is short-term, whim based.

Priciples, correctly done, are self-corrective. Pragmatism leads, as we see
in current society, the heaping on of more and more "corrective action" in
the form of "vicious cycles". (Think" "Throw more money at the problem".)

well, pragmatism is not necessarily bad, and is NOT "whim based"

Pragmastism isn't really part of the problem. Short-sighted goals and
selfishness labelled as pragmatism is.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

"Luke Skywalker" wrote in message
ps.com...
On May 16, 8:18 am, "Matt Barrow"
wrote:

The fact is that U.S. refining capacity has been growing at about 1% a
year
for the past decade - the equivalent of adding a mid-size refinery every
year. Since 1996, U.S. refiners have expanded capacity by more than 2
million barrels a day This is a remarkable achievement in the face of
environmental mandates setting new ethanol usage and low-sulfur
requirements.

But the last major refinery built in the U.S. was in Garyville, La., in
1976
and the ones we have are getting older, no matter how well they're
maintained.

I dont know about the rest of the country but I do know about
Louisiana. Right now you cannot go to a refinery complex on the
Southern Louisiana area and not see them doing MASSIVE expansion,
doubling sometimes tripling the refinery complex. From Norco/Avondale/
St. Rose near MSY (just south of it) up the river to L38 (Gonzalez)
where Sorento/Giesimer/Fina etc all the way to Baton Rouge (Port
Allen) the bulldozers and welders are working as we speak.


Doing what?

You say "expansion", but what are they expanding?

Now, if you'd read back to the original article, you'd find some interesting
data that you happened to snip.


You mention Garyville. That is the Marathon Garyville refinery near
REserve airport. In the last year it has doubled its size and now is
set for at least a doubling of that size. They are 'as we speak"
clearing the old sugar cane fields for new "smokestacks". The
Chocktow is also expanding.

"Expanding" what? Capacity? How much capacity expansion? (Original vs new).

the "we have not built a new refinery since XXXX" sounds good but is
misleading.

Only if we can keep updating 1970's technology.

Avgas in LA is cracked at the Sorento refinery near L38.

----------------
(What follows is not necessarily directed at Luke)

Hey, folks! Keep the old crap. Keep ANWR, the outer shelf and all the rest
nice and pristine.

There's no shortage of capacity (according to our resident "experts"), so
what are we worried about. If the price goes to $4.00 for Mogas and $5.50
for avgas, it's just the oil companies ripping us off.

"Bob Noel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Matt Barrow" wrote:

Think: principles

This requires long-term view of things and also integrative thought.

I agree.


Pragmatism is short-term, whim based.

Priciples, correctly done, are self-corrective. Pragmatism leads, as we
see
in current society, the heaping on of more and more "corrective action"
in
the form of "vicious cycles". (Think" "Throw more money at the problem".)

well, pragmatism is not necessarily bad, and is NOT "whim based"

It's not? What is your definition of "whim"?



Pragmastism isn't really part of the problem. Short-sighted goals and
selfishness labelled as pragmatism is.

What's wrong with selfishness? Selfishness is not necessarily short-term
based. Done right it's long-term.

In article ,
"Matt Barrow" wrote:

well, pragmatism is not necessarily bad, and is NOT "whim based"

It's not? What is your definition of "whim"?

Pragmatism: a practical approach to problems and affairs.

Whim: A sudden turn or start of the mind. NOTION, FANCY

It's hard for me to reconcile "practical" with "whim", they aren't
even close.


Pragmastism isn't really part of the problem. Short-sighted goals and
selfishness labelled as pragmatism is.

What's wrong with selfishness? Selfishness is not necessarily short-term
based. Done right it's long-term.

Selfishness that only gives priority to oneself is rarely beneficial to others
in the short-term or the long-term.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

Floyd L. Davidson wrote:

People who want to play word games worthy only of 10 year olds
tend not to be well versed on much of anything...


Sounds like Al Gore.

On May 18, 4:21 am, Matt Whiting wrote:

Nothing more than anecdotal. The person who told me about the airport
being dry said that there are only two refineries in the USA that still
make avgas. I haven't tried to confirm that, but given the low volume I
would not find this surprising.

Matt

Here's the volume:

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/a403600001m.htm

It's a tiny fraction of overall gasoline production, and falling
further.

"Matt Barrow" wrote:
"Luke Skywalker" wrote in message
ups.com...
On May 16, 8:18 am, "Matt Barrow"
wrote:

The fact is that U.S. refining capacity has been growing at about 1% a
year
for the past decade - the equivalent of adding a mid-size refinery every
year. Since 1996, U.S. refiners have expanded capacity by more than 2
million barrels a day This is a remarkable achievement in the face of
environmental mandates setting new ethanol usage and low-sulfur
requirements.

But the last major refinery built in the U.S. was in Garyville, La., in
1976
and the ones we have are getting older, no matter how well they're
maintained.

I dont know about the rest of the country but I do know about
Louisiana. Right now you cannot go to a refinery complex on the
Southern Louisiana area and not see them doing MASSIVE expansion,
doubling sometimes tripling the refinery complex. From Norco/Avondale/
St. Rose near MSY (just south of it) up the river to L38 (Gonzalez)
where Sorento/Giesimer/Fina etc all the way to Baton Rouge (Port
Allen) the bulldozers and welders are working as we speak.

Doing what?

You say "expansion", but what are they expanding?

Capacity.

Now, if you'd read back to the original article, you'd find some interesting
data that you happened to snip.

Nothing in the original article was valid. Why bother re-reading it.

You mention Garyville. That is the Marathon Garyville refinery near
REserve airport. In the last year it has doubled its size and now is
set for at least a doubling of that size. They are 'as we speak"
clearing the old sugar cane fields for new "smokestacks". The
Chocktow is also expanding.

"Expanding" what? Capacity? How much capacity expansion? (Original vs new).

Typically when any one refinery has been expanded, they go for enough
added capacity to provide whatever increase is needed plus enough to
shutdown at least one other refinery. That is why for decades now there
have been no "new" refineries built, but there has been a steady increase
in capacity and a dramatic decrease in the number of refineries.

the "we have not built a new refinery since XXXX" sounds good but is
misleading.

Only if we can keep updating 1970's technology.

An absurd statement. Why would anyone want to do that, and since
when is anyone trying to do that. 1970's technology is what they
are eliminating as fast as they can.

There's no shortage of capacity (according to our resident "experts"), so
what are we worried about. If the price goes to $4.00 for Mogas and $5.50
for avgas, it's just the oil companies ripping us off.

Given that they can expand refinery capacity at will, what else would you
want to call it?

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

kontiki wrote:
Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
People who want to play word games worthy only of 10
year olds
tend not to be well versed on much of anything...

Sounds like Al Gore.

I haven't seen where Gore plays word games. But on the
other hand I do recall how his words too were twisted by
opponents that it turns out now clearly are mental
midgets.

"Al Gore invented the Internet" is of course nothing
Gore claimed. People who did invent the Internet (Bob
Kahn and Vinton Cerf) supported what Al Gore's
statements. GW Bush's crew didn't, and now look where
we are...

If only Gore had been elected President! (The coming
transition to Hillary Clinton would have been so much
more pleasant that what it will be this way.)

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)