Rudder waggle

"toad" wrote in message
...
The wave off is not a
signal for "you need to release in 1 second". That signal is the tow
pilot pulling HIS release.

Sorry, I disagree. The wave off is a command. It means "release now".
Think of it as a pact with your tow pilot. Ten seconds is an eternity when you
are only a few feet from the ground and things are rapidly going to hell. When
you get the wave off, release now and ask questions later.

We have that signal to keep our tow pilots alive so we can get another tow
the next time we come out to fly. Yes, in a perfect world the tow pilot will
hand you the rope if he (she) has a problem, but there are situations where that
is not possible. Be kind to your tow pilot.

Vaughn

In any case, since you can't trust the glider pilot to correctly
interpret this signal, the policy to train tow pilots would be to NOT
give any signals below 200 feet.
Or back to what Todd Smith was saying. Nothing wrong with it.

Richard
Phoenix AZ

Let's rephrase that..
Let's not do any "training" signals below 200ft
And if we are climbing safely and I cannot reach you on a radio, wait until
at least 200ft for the rudder waggle.
But if I'm below 200ft with a problem.. can't climb, got no power, and the
glider is the problem.. It's for real and you'll get the signal.

If I've got the problem, bad motor, flight control issue and I can't get you
to a safe altitude, you'll see the rope go slack.
I always hate the wing rock.. if I'm low and loosing power.. that's the last
thing I want to do.

BT


"jeplane" wrote in message
...
In any case, since you can't trust the glider pilot to correctly
interpret this signal, the policy to train tow pilots would be to NOT
give any signals below 200 feet.
Or back to what Todd Smith was saying. Nothing wrong with it.

Richard
Phoenix AZ

On Nov 18, 10:12 pm, "BT" wrote:
Let's rephrase that..
Let's not do any "training" signals below 200ft
And if we are climbing safely and I cannot reach you on a radio, wait until
at least 200ft for the rudder waggle.
But if I'm below 200ft with a problem.. can't climb, got no power, and the
glider is the problem.. It's for real and you'll get the signal.

If I've got the problem, bad motor, flight control issue and I can't get you
to a safe altitude, you'll see the rope go slack.
I always hate the wing rock.. if I'm low and loosing power.. that's the last
thing I want to do.


Yeah! What he said!

Pete
#309
"Former" Tow Pilot
Tugs: Most dangerous planes I've flown thanks to maintenance,
failures and STUDENT GLIDER PILOTS.

Marc Ramsey wrote:

I don't blame tow pilots for anything. I just don't like the signal.
It's too easy for that small percentage of us (like me) that when
anticipating a particular signal, will occasionally misread the signal
that was provided as the one that was expected. I really appreciate a
tow pilot who allows for the failings of us bozos at the other end.

The rest of you, of course, are absolutely perfect, never get confused,
do your checklists 100% perfectly every time, always wear clean
underwear, etc., and if someone screws up at what you can do so
perfectly, it's their own darn fault....


I think that is not the point at all, Marc. Any of us can make a
mistake. I understand the human propensity to see what one expects to
see. I have made similar errors, of course. But if many glider pilots
can be expected to get the signals wrong--to react to what they expect
rather than what they actually see--then the sport needs better
training/checking/briefing right across the board.

And yes, when I screw up that which you do so perfectly it is not your
fault, but we have arrived at a common simple solution for the
mis-configuration signal. If the rudder-waggle signal is being
misinterpreted, what signal would you suggest we use to replace it?
Would using no signal be better? Would a radio call be better, requiring
that radio installation be mandatory in all gliders and that a radio
check be accomplished prior to every takeoff? Another F-ing American
Rule? Just what would be a more elegant solution than the simple
rudder-waggle founded upon responsible and regular
training/checking/briefing of glider communication techniques?

The kind of error that we are talking about comes from a lack of
experience, familiarity, currency--call it what you will. If we are so
nervous in the aircraft that we are spring-loaded to do something even
if it's wrong, then does that tendency show up only with regard to the
glider-configuration warning signal, or is it perhaps also likely to
show up in any and every phase of the operation, from assembly to
preflight to launch and right through the flight and on to disassembly?
Can we actually be trusted anywhere near these deadly glider-things?

If you believe that you or the pilots with whom you fly are likely to
react improperly to the rudder-waggle signal, what have you been doing
about the problem, and what results have you seen?


Jack

J a c k wrote:
I think that is not the point at all, Marc. Any of us can make a
mistake. I understand the human propensity to see what one expects to
see. I have made similar errors, of course. But if many glider pilots
can be expected to get the signals wrong--to react to what they expect
rather than what they actually see--then the sport needs better
training/checking/briefing right across the board.

At some point one has to accept the fact that there is going to be a
non-zero error rate, as glider clubs aren't military organizations.
They can't set standards which are higher than the members are willing
to accept.

And yes, when I screw up that which you do so perfectly it is not your
fault, but we have arrived at a common simple solution for the
mis-configuration signal. If the rudder-waggle signal is being
misinterpreted, what signal would you suggest we use to replace it?
Would using no signal be better? Would a radio call be better, requiring
that radio installation be mandatory in all gliders and that a radio
check be accomplished prior to every takeoff? Another F-ing American
Rule? Just what would be a more elegant solution than the simple
rudder-waggle founded upon responsible and regular
training/checking/briefing of glider communication techniques?

The answer is already known. Tow pilots, please don't use the rudder
wag unless the glider is in a safe position to land if the pilot
releases immediately. If the problem is not immediately affecting the
safety of the tow, hold off using the signal until safe. If there is a
safety issue, the rudder wag is inappropriate, and the wave off should
be used instead.

The kind of error that we are talking about comes from a lack of
experience, familiarity, currency--call it what you will. If we are so
nervous in the aircraft that we are spring-loaded to do something even
if it's wrong, then does that tendency show up only with regard to the
glider-configuration warning signal, or is it perhaps also likely to
show up in any and every phase of the operation, from assembly to
preflight to launch and right through the flight and on to disassembly?
Can we actually be trusted anywhere near these deadly glider-things?

Just like control hookups. If I knew I was perfect and always did my
checklist and a thorough positive check, I'd be perfectly safe with
manual hookups. Since I know I'm not perfect, and have known enough
otherwise diligent people who failed to be perfect about this, I limit
my glider choices to those with automatic hookups.

I am not a professional pilot. I do not fly enough to maintain the
familiarity and currency of a professional pilot. Perhaps I shouldn't
be flying anything, but that is true of enough pilots that you'd
probably decimate the sport if you set standards that high.

If you believe that you or the pilots with whom you fly are likely to
react improperly to the rudder-waggle signal, what have you been doing
about the problem, and what results have you seen?

If that was the only problem with pilots, we'd be in very good shape...

Marc

In article , J a c k
writes
Marc Ramsey wrote:


You can complain about training if you like,
but I bet the majority of US pilots will
nonetheless release immediately if you waggle
the rudder at them....


In which case complaints about training and/or preparation on the part
of the glider pilot are definitely in order. When did we start blaming
tow pilots for glider pilots' mistakes?

It sounds like the best way to reduce the number of rudder-signal
miscues would be to include them in the pre-flight briefing, and not to
refrain from using them simply because we have lost confidence in our
own training establishment.


Jack


At our club the then chief flying instructor asked me, as tuggie, to do
a rudder waggle when he was doing annual revalidations. Three out of the
four pilots doing their annual checks released. That was two years ago.

These days, when you do your annual, you are asked about the signals
before you go.

One of the signals is that the glider "flies out to the left as far as
possible and rocks the wings laterally" The meaning is that the glider
cant let the rope go.

What happens then? We never practice descending on tow. I asked our
resident instructor, he said the tug should continue climbing and
position the glider in a good place to make a safe landing.

I wonder what other people do in the event that the glider cant release?

--
Mike Lindsay

The book says that we are going to land on tow (and we practize for that).

But then, I haven't heared of such a case in the last 27 years...

Bert

"Mike Lindsay" wrote in message
...

I wonder what other people do in the event that the glider cant release?

--
Mike Lindsay

SNIP / QUOTE: ". . . you'd probably decimate the sport if you set
standards that high."

Does "you" mean "us" - the glider pilots, instructors and towpilots,
or does "you" mean allowing the FAA to increase the standards for us,
and do it "their" way?

I think we are missing the point here, guys. Sure we should know the
signals, but we don't. Why? Because we almost never use them and only
refresh ourselves every couple of years when its biannual time. What
DO we use? We use the radio, every flight. I believe the radio should
be the primary method to communicate with the tow
piolt.............................you can't misinterpret a call to
CLOSE YOUR SPOILERS. What problems can we have with using the radio?
Dead battery..........Volume not turned up............Squelch not
set.............Wrong frequency................Othere on the freq.
How can we be sure that radio communications will work when
needed?.....................................By always doing a com-
check, just before starting every tow.
JJ

PS; If others are garbage-mouthing the frequence...............Shout
SPOILERS, SPOILERS, SPOILERS and keep shouting it until the guy gets
the message and he will just as soon as the garbage-mouth takes a
breath. This will work, if you have performed a com-check!