I have my new Sparrow Hawk

BTIZ wrote:

First I will ask a question, Is the Sparrow Hawk registered with an N-number
and does it have an Airworthiness Cert that it is a "glider"

If not your club needs to re-look at it's insurance, and your tow pilots at
their ratings.. They are certified to tow gliders, not any thing else, if
they are towing an ultra light that is not certified by the FAA as a
"glider" and has an N-number registration, they are in violation of FARs and
most likely the tow plane's insurance is in violation. At that point in time
it matters not if the "ultra light" has insurance or not.

So if it has an N number it's a glider and
if it doesn't it's an ultralight? If I paint an
orange yellow, is it a lemon? :P

If the federales ask at some point, it'd probably be
time to ask for a waiver. Banner, sparrowhawk, whatever.
If the insurers are willing to cover it, the
feds probably wouldn't even blink...especially since the
exact same aircraft with N number is fine...
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

Actually it would be more reasonable to argue the other direction.

I haven't looked it up but if I recall my definitions the FAA does not
consider an ultralight vehical to be an Aircraft. While It may meet
the definiation of a glider, if meets the definition of an ultralight
the FAA does not reconginize it as an aircraft and as a result it does
not need to be registered, Certified or require a Pilot Certificate to
fly it.

I do not recall any regulation concerning towing of ultralight
vehicals so It could be argued that as far as the regulations are
concerned there are no tow pilot requirements for towing ultralight
vehicals. As such a newly licensed recreational Pilot might be able to
Tow ultralight vehicals with no endorsements required. They would have
to be careful not to be receiving any compensation for doing so.

Just because it might be allowed by the regulations does not make it
safe or reasonable to try it. Insurance wording is an entirely
different matter.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL



First I will ask a question, Is the Sparrow Hawk registered with an N-number
and does it have an Airworthiness Cert that it is a "glider"

If not your club needs to re-look at it's insurance, and your tow pilots at
their ratings.. They are certified to tow gliders, not any thing else, if
they are towing an ultra light that is not certified by the FAA as a
"glider" and has an N-number registration, they are in violation of FARs and
most likely the tow plane's insurance is in violation. At that point in time
it matters not if the "ultra light" has insurance or not.

JMHO
BT

Brian... read 91.311, it says you can't tow ANYTHING (banners, whatever)
without a waiver, except as outlined in 91.309. 91.309 is the "glider tow"
endorsement.

Our insurance carrier has made it clear that without an airworthy
certification that says "glider" we are not covered. Arguments about FARs
are open to debate, that's why we have lawyers.

BT


"Brian Case" wrote in message
om...
Actually it would be more reasonable to argue the other direction.

I haven't looked it up but if I recall my definitions the FAA does not
consider an ultralight vehical to be an Aircraft. While It may meet
the definiation of a glider, if meets the definition of an ultralight
the FAA does not reconginize it as an aircraft and as a result it does
not need to be registered, Certified or require a Pilot Certificate to
fly it.

I do not recall any regulation concerning towing of ultralight
vehicals so It could be argued that as far as the regulations are
concerned there are no tow pilot requirements for towing ultralight
vehicals. As such a newly licensed recreational Pilot might be able to
Tow ultralight vehicals with no endorsements required. They would have
to be careful not to be receiving any compensation for doing so.

Just because it might be allowed by the regulations does not make it
safe or reasonable to try it. Insurance wording is an entirely
different matter.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL



First I will ask a question, Is the Sparrow Hawk registered with an
N-number
and does it have an Airworthiness Cert that it is a "glider"

If not your club needs to re-look at it's insurance, and your tow pilots
at
their ratings.. They are certified to tow gliders, not any thing else,
if
they are towing an ultra light that is not certified by the FAA as a
"glider" and has an N-number registration, they are in violation of FARs
and
most likely the tow plane's insurance is in violation. At that point in
time
it matters not if the "ultra light" has insurance or not.

JMHO
BT

further review of Part 103 was recommended.. So I read the entire 3 pages.
I only see two types of Ultralights.. Powered and Unpowered, and no where
anywhere in Part 103 did I find a reference to an "Ultralight glider"

So... if operating under Part 103, it's an ultralight and gives way to all
aircraft.
If you want to be called a glider, then I'm thinking you want to operate
under Part 91 which means you need an airworthiness certificate. And Part
91.309 says I can only tow "glider" , not an unpowered ultra light. That
would fall into that other category under 91.311.

Also, there is no definition for "ultralight" in FAR 1.1, that definition
only exists in Part 103

Part 103 also says no pilot certification to fly an "ultralight" is
required, so how can I properly assess that any "pilot" that shows up with
an "ultra light" can actually fly it.

I've always liked the design of the Sparrowhawk and would love to have one.
If and when I do, I'll take the extra time to get the certifications to fly
under Part 91.

BT

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:_rgmc.12051$k24.7723@fed1read01...
Brian... read 91.311, it says you can't tow ANYTHING (banners, whatever)
without a waiver, except as outlined in 91.309. 91.309 is the "glider
tow"
endorsement.

Our insurance carrier has made it clear that without an airworthy
certification that says "glider" we are not covered. Arguments about FARs
are open to debate, that's why we have lawyers.

BT


"Brian Case" wrote in message
om...
Actually it would be more reasonable to argue the other direction.

I haven't looked it up but if I recall my definitions the FAA does not
consider an ultralight vehical to be an Aircraft. While It may meet
the definiation of a glider, if meets the definition of an ultralight
the FAA does not reconginize it as an aircraft and as a result it does
not need to be registered, Certified or require a Pilot Certificate to
fly it.

I do not recall any regulation concerning towing of ultralight
vehicals so It could be argued that as far as the regulations are
concerned there are no tow pilot requirements for towing ultralight
vehicals. As such a newly licensed recreational Pilot might be able to
Tow ultralight vehicals with no endorsements required. They would have
to be careful not to be receiving any compensation for doing so.

Just because it might be allowed by the regulations does not make it
safe or reasonable to try it. Insurance wording is an entirely
different matter.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL



First I will ask a question, Is the Sparrow Hawk registered with an
N-number
and does it have an Airworthiness Cert that it is a "glider"

If not your club needs to re-look at it's insurance, and your tow
pilots
at
their ratings.. They are certified to tow gliders, not any thing else,
if
they are towing an ultra light that is not certified by the FAA as a
"glider" and has an N-number registration, they are in violation of
FARs
and
most likely the tow plane's insurance is in violation. At that point
in
time
it matters not if the "ultra light" has insurance or not.

JMHO
BT

"BTIZ" wrote in message news:Uhhmc.12061

Also, there is no definition for "ultralight" in FAR 1.1, that definition
only exists in Part 103


The definitions in 14 CFR Part 1.1 cover Part 103.

I haven't looked it up but if I recall my definitions the FAA does not
consider an ultralight vehical to be an Aircraft. While It may meet
the definiation of a glider, if meets the definition of an ultralight
the FAA does not reconginize it as an aircraft and as a result it does
not need to be registered, Certified or require a Pilot Certificate to
fly it.


On the contrary, there is absolutely nothing in Part 103 saying that
an ultralight vehicle is not an aircraft. It is one, in accordance
with the definition of an Aircraft in 14 CFR Part 1.1.

Part 103 exempts ultralight vehicles from the requirements that would
otherwise apply to aircraft under 14 CFR. For example,
"Notwithstanding any other section pertaining to certification of
aircraft or their parts or equipment, ultralight vehicles and their
component parts and equipment are not required to meet the
airworthiness certification standards specified for aircraft or to
have certificates of airworthiness." Note that it does not suggest
that ultralight vehicles are not aircraft, it merely exempts them from
the standards and requirement for certificates of airworthiness.


It could be argued that as far as the regulations are
concerned there are no tow pilot requirements for towing ultralight
vehicals. As such a newly licensed recreational Pilot might be able
to
Tow ultralight vehicals with no endorsements required.


Again, on the contrary, 14 CFR 91.311 requires an exemption to use an
aircraft to tow anything other than a glider, and a glider can only be
towed subject to the relevant requirements.

It does seem to me that the FAA wanted to stay away from having
anything to do with ultralight vehicles, and probably didn't have in
mind the possibility that one might be towed by a certificated
aircraft. So certainly if substantial amounts of common sense aren't
applied by pilots themselves and people start towing hang gliders with
Pawnees, the FAA is likely to feel compelled to step in. Hang glider
pilots, in general, seem to have a fair understanding of what would
happen to a flexwing towed at 70 knots, and Pawnee pilots probably
have enough common sense not to try it, but then again to paraphrase
someone or other, no-one ever got rich by over-estimating the
intelligence of the public...

And Jim Phoenix is right: there IS a requirement that an Experimental
glider should have (Glider) in the Category/Designation block. The
reason, oddly, is to "ensure appropriate application of 14 CFR Part 61
.... concerning the medical requirements for the operation of such
aircraft."

It could be argued that as far as the regulations are
concerned there are no tow pilot requirements for towing ultralight
vehicals. As such a newly licensed recreational Pilot might be able

to

Tow ultralight vehicals with no endorsements required.



Again, on the contrary, 14 CFR 91.311 requires an exemption to use an
aircraft to tow anything other than a glider, and a glider can only be
towed subject to the relevant requirements.


It looks like the USHGA has an exemption No. 4144 from the FAA that
covers the towing of unpowered ultralight aircraft by powered ultralight
aircraft where both aircraft would be operating under part 103 There
are a lot of requirements spelled out under the USHGA rules part 104
that cover required pilot training and also related to equipment and
which the exemption requires be met. See:

http://www.ushga.org/104-part-2.asp#4144

The case where a towplane operating under part 61 and 91 would be towing
an unpowered ultralight that was not registered, and therefore operating
under part 103, would appear to have been not accounted for under either
part 103 or part 61 and 91 and likely appears to be not allowed without
another waiver, at least on the part of the towplane operating under
part 61 and 91.



It does seem to me that the FAA wanted to stay away from having
anything to do with ultralight vehicles, and probably didn't have in
mind the possibility that one might be towed by a certificated
aircraft. So certainly if substantial amounts of common sense aren't
applied by pilots themselves and people start towing hang gliders with
Pawnees, the FAA is likely to feel compelled to step in. Hang glider
pilots, in general, seem to have a fair understanding of what would
happen to a flexwing towed at 70 knots, and Pawnee pilots probably
have enough common sense not to try it, but then again to paraphrase
someone or other, no-one ever got rich by over-estimating the
intelligence of the public...


This is almost exactly what they say in U.S. DOT FAA Advisory Circular 103-7
see http://www.ultralighthomepage.com/AC103-7/ac103-7.html

They mainly care about protecting the non-flying public, and other
members of the flying public using the same airspace, but:

"Part 103 is based on the assumption that any individual who elects
to fly an ultralight vehicle has assessed the dangers involved and
assumes personal responsibility for his/her safety."

" e. You are Responsible for the Future Direction the Federal
Government Takes
With Respect to Ultralight Vehicles, The actions of the ultralight
community
will affect the direction Government takes in future regulations.
The safety
record of ultralight vehicles will be the foremost factor in
determining the need
for further regulations."

I haven't looked it up but if I recall my definitions the FAA does not
consider an ultralight vehical to be an Aircraft. While It may meet
the definiation of a glider, if meets the definition of an ultralight
the FAA does not reconginize it as an aircraft and as a result it does
not need to be registered, Certified or require a Pilot Certificate to
fly it.

I do not recall any regulation concerning towing of ultralight
vehicals so It could be argued that as far as the regulations are
concerned there are no tow pilot requirements for towing ultralight
vehicals. As such a newly licensed recreational Pilot might be able to
Tow ultralight vehicals with no endorsements required. They would have
to be careful not to be receiving any compensation for doing so.

I contacted the Spokane FSDO and spoke to Chuck Roberts (800-341-2623)
about this. He did not think there was any problem towing ultralights,
providing they were compatible with the tow plane (Vne). The
definition of glider and aircraft does not include any mention of
certification, so an ultra-light is an aircraft and an ultra-light
glider is a glider per the FARs. He did allow that the FARs do refer
to ultra-lights as "vehicles" instead of aircraft. He said the purpose
here is to prevent ultra-lights from becoming entangled with other
FARs that cover "aircraft". Chuck said that if you want to get the
issue resolved you can write him (or any FSDO) a letter requesting a
clarification of the FARs. This would then be forwarded to FAA legal
who would (eventually) issue a ruling. Also, the tow plane operator
can request a waiver to tow ultra-lights, but the waiver would only be
valid for that particular tow plane.

As far as insurance goes, if the FARs allow it and it isn't
specifically excluded in the policy then you are covered.

Tom Seim
Richland, WA

As far as insurance goes, if the FARs allow it and it isn't
specifically excluded in the policy then you are covered.

A few times a year, my club has "encampments" to different sites for a
week or two at a time - just for a change in pace.

We would ferry some gliders to the new site (or back) two at a time
behind a tow plane (100nm+). We'd put one glider on a 200 foot rope in
high tow and off to one of side of the tow plane. The other glider would
be on a 300 foot rope in low tow and on the opposite side of the tow
plane. All pilots were very experienced and well briefed before the
flight and we never had the slightest problem.

We did this for years until a board member decided to check with the
insurance company. The reply was (in effect): if there's an accident
while performing the dual tow, we'd probably cover you, but would likely
decline to provide coverage the following year.

We don't do dual tows anymore. Bummer. It was kind of fun.

Tony V.

we got the same answer Tony... even though dual tows was on the SSA handbook

BT

"Tony Verhulst" wrote in message
...

As far as insurance goes, if the FARs allow it and it isn't
specifically excluded in the policy then you are covered.

A few times a year, my club has "encampments" to different sites for a
week or two at a time - just for a change in pace.

We would ferry some gliders to the new site (or back) two at a time
behind a tow plane (100nm+). We'd put one glider on a 200 foot rope in
high tow and off to one of side of the tow plane. The other glider would
be on a 300 foot rope in low tow and on the opposite side of the tow
plane. All pilots were very experienced and well briefed before the
flight and we never had the slightest problem.

We did this for years until a board member decided to check with the
insurance company. The reply was (in effect): if there's an accident
while performing the dual tow, we'd probably cover you, but would likely
decline to provide coverage the following year.

We don't do dual tows anymore. Bummer. It was kind of fun.

Tony V.