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#21
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East River turning radius
"Peter Dohm" wrote Presuming that no one is immediately on top of you, somethng akin to a duster turn works quite well and only uses about 50 feet to make a really dramatic difference in the turn radius. I used to do that to turn around a Tomohawk (PA-38) in a small radius. I wonder if a low time pilot like this one, at what, about 80 hours, could be taught to do this kind of turn in a Cirrus? Doubtful, I think, don't you? I didn't even think of a duster turn. Perhaps that should become a new required maneuver in the private pilot test? g Or does that go in the classification of, "Hey, y'all, watch this!" /;-o)) -- Jim in NC |
#22
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East River turning radius
Maule Driver wrote:
That makes sense. What I was thinking of was, "what do you do to request the a Class B clearance so you don't have to do the U-turn". Is there a freq for self announcing and requesting clearances? They are not one in the same. However, I have a hard time imagining LaGuardia having the time to identify and clear an East River VFR corridor-located aircraft into their class B airspace north of Roosevelt Island, given how busy they are. Considering the helicopter traffic on that side of the island, perhaps it is possible but in my case during the many times I have been in along the Hudson, my plan for getting out of the scenic corridors was to return to the Hudson side, remain below class B and fly north back up the Hudson to the Tappan Zee Bridge where the class B shelf rises. At that point I would call NY approach for clearance into the class B. This seemed to me to be the least stressful method for doing this. I recall reading that there is also an option of calling Teterboro tower as well, then turning west over New Jersey towards TEB, but I have never tried that option. -- Peter |
#23
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East River turning radius
wrote in message ... Found this link: http://www.csgnetwork.com/aircraftturninfocalc.html (Some other interesting calculators there also) I think the turing radius calculator is borked...... Try 80MPH at 89 degree bank angle.... Impressive piece of engineering if possible. Found this link: The calculator is correct by my reckoning. 80mph and 89 degree bank gives 8 ft radius turning circle which is correct in theory. it sounds ridiculous but really the 89 degree angle of bank is what is ridiculous . such a turn if possible would pull 57 g. the calculation is not that difficult. radius= v squared / g tan ( bank angle) terry |
#24
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East River turning radius
Maule Driver wrote:
I'm wondering if the only thing that may keep the VFR corridor in place is a desire on the part of ATC to keep all the sightseeing requests at bay. You _can_ fly the corridor in the Bravo space with a clearance, and enjoy positive separation, etc... |
#25
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East River turning radius
B A R R Y wrote:
Maule Driver wrote: I'm wondering if the only thing that may keep the VFR corridor in place is a desire on the part of ATC to keep all the sightseeing requests at bay. You _can_ fly the corridor in the Bravo space with a clearance, and enjoy positive separation, etc... Nope, if you're in the corridor VFR you neither have a clearance nor positive separation. What you can do is ask to fly down the river just above the corridor, inside the class B, which will require the clearance and provide separation. |
#26
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East River turning radius
Ron Natalie wrote:
What you can do is ask to fly down the river just above the corridor, inside the class B, which will require the clearance and provide separation. That's exactly what I'm talking about. G You are correct that technically you're no longer in the "VFR corridor" when you're in Bravo space, I didn't make that very clear. |
#27
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East River turning radius
Peter
What is a "duster turn"? Peter Dohm wrote: "Morgans" wrote in message ... "Neil Gould" wrote Wow. You can do an Immelman in under 500'? Impressive! How about a baby hammerhead turn, with a half roll coming out of it? g -- Jim in NC Presuming that no one is immediately on top of you, somethng akin to a duster turn works quite well and only uses about 50 feet to make a really dramatic difference in the turn radius. I used to do that to turn around a Tomohawk (PA-38) in a small radius. Peter |
#28
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East River turning radius
"Morgans" wrote in message
... "Peter Dohm" wrote Presuming that no one is immediately on top of you, somethng akin to a duster turn works quite well and only uses about 50 feet to make a really dramatic difference in the turn radius. I used to do that to turn around a Tomohawk (PA-38) in a small radius. I wonder if a low time pilot like this one, at what, about 80 hours, could be taught to do this kind of turn in a Cirrus? Doubtful, I think, don't you? I didn't even think of a duster turn. Perhaps that should become a new required maneuver in the private pilot test? g Or does that go in the classification of, "Hey, y'all, watch this!" /;-o)) -- Jim in NC What I did wasn't a true duster turn; I didn't turn out, then greater than 180, and then reverse again. What really happened (the first time I did it) was that I probably had about 30 hours and was out in the practice area with my instructor, who believed in tight patterns, for the purpose of horsing the plane around to become accustomed to its handling characteristics. At that time, the PA-38 was pretty new to both of us. By the time that he requested that I turn the plane around over a field in the practice area, within plus or minus 50 feet of altitude, it was apparent to me (from doing 2G circles and figure 8s around pilons) that the width of that field was less than the plane's 2G turning diameter at 80 Kts. So, I throttled back, lost about 25 feet, pulled up, rolled into the bank and around the turn, leveled the wings, pulled out and brought the power back up. The maneuver used about half of the altitude tolerance--and about half the width of the field. All in all, I would not put it in the category of "Hey, y'all, watch this!" Instead, it is a precision method that allows a 1G turn with 60 a degree bank at approach speed, and a resulting tight turning radius. Like any precision work, it is a good idea to practice it first over a lot of flat countryside--as we did. Including steeper banks and some energy management manuevers in the private pilot training would probably be a good idea. I think that duster turns, as done by dusters, might be fun to watch--from the ground. g Peter (Off line 'till tomorrow evening) |
#29
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East River turning radius
Any body notice that CNN quoted the NTSB last nite as saying that the
parachute had been thermally deployed? To me that means he was trying to recover from an airframe disaster. And it makes it much less likely that he was just botching up a turn maneuver. I really have trouble visualizing a student with his flight instructor flying into a building because he screwed up the turn. And reaching up and pulling the big red lever in the roof. Since we're all guessing, I'm going with loss of a flight control surface --maybe a bird? Maule Driver wrote: As soon as I heard East Side, Cirrus, building strike - I thought low time pilot, hot aircraft, many distractions, wrong side of the VFR corridor having do the U-turn. I've lived on Roosevelt Island (middle of the East River just south of the turn) and flown the corridor in a 172. I early on decided never to fly the East River just because it's too tight and too filled with traffic. It's not unsafe, it's just unnecessarily challenging when the Hudson provides an equivalent experience. I don't know how you properly train for that flight.... Few of us spend much time flying within 1/4 mile of buildings and below their tops. All of us can make the necessary turn at 1,000 feet in Iowa. Most of us will find it catches your breath the first time you do it at 800 feet in a concrete canyon near so many millions of people. Low ceilings, some wind, some rapid fire Laguardia radio work in the background. It's pretty high excitement. I had flown many hours ridge soaring the Appalachins - 500 feet above valley floor, 2 wingspans from the trees, redlining at 155mph, 200 miles from homebase. Then I went out west. It took me 3 days of flying before I could get within a 1/4 mile of a Sierra peak, 5,000 feet above the valley floor, at 60 mph, 2 miles from takeoff. Vice-a-versa for western pilots flying the eastern hills. It's all in you head but it's all quite real. We already have the knowledge and skills to do it. We just have to get the quivering mass of grey matter to settle down enough to let the training take over. Gary Drescher wrote: Using the East River VFR corridor requires planning the turn carefully--especially since you need to leave an extra margin in case you have to dodge high-density traffic there. Yep. And not doing so can end up just like a guy in a used Porsche on a rain slicked road - they just don't scramble jets on the west coast while pulling the lifeless remains out of a Meadowlands swamp. No point here... just rambling. |
#30
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East River turning radius
Any body notice that CNN quoted the NTSB last nite as saying that the
parachute had been thermally deployed? To me that means he was trying to recover from an airframe disaster. And it makes it much less likely that he was just botching up a turn maneuver. I really have trouble visualizing a student with his flight instructor flying into a building because he screwed up the turn. And reaching up and pulling the big red lever in the roof. Since we're all guessing, I'm going with loss of a flight control surface --maybe a bird? Maule Driver wrote: As soon as I heard East Side, Cirrus, building strike - I thought low time pilot, hot aircraft, many distractions, wrong side of the VFR corridor having do the U-turn. I've lived on Roosevelt Island (middle of the East River just south of the turn) and flown the corridor in a 172. I early on decided never to fly the East River just because it's too tight and too filled with traffic. It's not unsafe, it's just unnecessarily challenging when the Hudson provides an equivalent experience. I don't know how you properly train for that flight.... Few of us spend much time flying within 1/4 mile of buildings and below their tops. All of us can make the necessary turn at 1,000 feet in Iowa. Most of us will find it catches your breath the first time you do it at 800 feet in a concrete canyon near so many millions of people. Low ceilings, some wind, some rapid fire Laguardia radio work in the background. It's pretty high excitement. I had flown many hours ridge soaring the Appalachins - 500 feet above valley floor, 2 wingspans from the trees, redlining at 155mph, 200 miles from homebase. Then I went out west. It took me 3 days of flying before I could get within a 1/4 mile of a Sierra peak, 5,000 feet above the valley floor, at 60 mph, 2 miles from takeoff. Vice-a-versa for western pilots flying the eastern hills. It's all in you head but it's all quite real. We already have the knowledge and skills to do it. We just have to get the quivering mass of grey matter to settle down enough to let the training take over. Gary Drescher wrote: Using the East River VFR corridor requires planning the turn carefully--especially since you need to leave an extra margin in case you have to dodge high-density traffic there. Yep. And not doing so can end up just like a guy in a used Porsche on a rain slicked road - they just don't scramble jets on the west coast while pulling the lifeless remains out of a Meadowlands swamp. No point here... just rambling. |
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