Which 18m FES sailplane to buy?

I have ordered a GP12 E FLEX. The -2ms speed is 185kph at max allowed
wingloading (45kg/m2). The VELO will be better than that. It is self
launching of course, and the electric motor is not FES but on a pylon. This
is preferable to FES because with a folding prop there is very little drag
with the pylon out, and it is much more efficient aerodynamically, no FES
drag (1% or so), and less battery drain! Retract takes only 5 secs anyway.
Obviously an ultralight cannot compete with a fully ballasted 18m racer,
but then look at the price difference, 50% including a trailer! QED


At 13:46 09 December 2015, Casey Cox wrote:
On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 12:38:14 AM UTC-5, Surge wrote:
On Wednesday, 9 December 2015 01:10:25 UTC+2, Casey Cox wrote:
I can understand why one would want a specific glider if one was
planni=
ng to compete, but with so many more advantages of having a 13.5m, I
wonder=
why more people do not consider them.
=20
The performance of 13.5m gliders is a lot lower than even previous
genera=
tion glass/carbon gliders. Most of the 13.5m gliders have max L/D's in
the
=
high 30's or low 40's and their performance drops drastically when some
spe=
ed is added (typically 2m/s sink rate at around the 170km/h mark). Their
lo=
wer wing loading limitations doesn't lend them for the booming weather
foun=
d in Africa/Australia/Western USA.
Most of them also have much lower Vne's (around the 220 to 230km/h
mark)
=
and this becomes an issue at higher altitudes where one becomes Vne
limited=
..
=20
The only benefit that I can see in owning a 13.5m glider is easier
riggin=
g and derigging due to lower weight components but I'm not age limited
yet.

I figured that but seeing someone else actually state it helps. The
other
=
advantage you missed is Self Launch. I did not realize that Vne
limitation=
became a problem. (Haven't got there yet).

It just seems more manufactures are building 13.5m (LAK just introduced
the=
Mini Lak at the 1st International 13.5m), and I wonder what sales are of
1=
3.5m compared to 15m and 18m.

I'm hoping in 4-5 yrs I can be in a position to upgrade to an FES.

On Wednesday, 9 December 2015 15:46:55 UTC+2, Casey Cox wrote:
I figured that but seeing someone else actually state it helps. The other advantage you missed is Self Launch. I did not realize that Vne limitation became a problem. (Haven't got there yet).

I didn't miss the self launch option as one can already purchase self launch gliders new or second hand so there is no particular advantage to a 13.5m self launcher.
If I'm not mistaken there is a self-launch option for the LAK 17B FES so FES self-launch is possible on longer wingspan gliders too even if it's not that popular yet.

It comes down to cost vs performance and if I had the choice I'd rather spend the money on a second hand, 18m, petrol powered self launcher than on a new 13.5m FES glider simply due to bang-for-buck. But then again I'm one of those types who doesn't replace my vehicle every three years and couldn't care about driving the latest and greatest. I'm sure the 13.5m gliders are plenty of fun to fly.

Yes 13.5 gliders are great fun, especially for the recreational pilot.
But the problems with longer span gliders here in Europe are the
restrictions
imposed by EASA on certified aircraft. With UL, flying costs are lower too
- no aerotows, self maintenance, smaller batteries for electric power etc.
etc.
Used new-design 18m self-launchers are still way more expensive than
13.5m gliders.
If cost is not an issue then just wait 3 years for the latest super-yacht!

At 05:40 10 December 2015, Surge wrote:
On Wednesday, 9 December 2015 15:46:55 UTC+2, Casey Cox wrote:
I figured that but seeing someone else actually state it helps. The
othe=
r advantage you missed is Self Launch. I did not realize that Vne
limitati=
on became a problem. (Haven't got there yet).

I didn't miss the self launch option as one can already purchase self
launc=
h gliders new or second hand so there is no particular advantage to a
13.5m=
self launcher.
If I'm not mistaken there is a self-launch option for the LAK 17B FES so
FE=
S self-launch is possible on longer wingspan gliders too even if it's not
t=
hat popular yet.

It comes down to cost vs performance and if I had the choice I'd rather
spe=
nd the money on a second hand, 18m, petrol powered self launcher than on
a
=
new 13.5m FES glider simply due to bang-for-buck. But then again I'm one
of=
those types who doesn't replace my vehicle every three years and
couldn't
=
care about driving the latest and greatest. I'm sure the 13.5m gliders
are
=
plenty of fun to fly.

Ben,
OK..I guess I need to throw in my 2 cents...I currently own a LAK-17B FES. I owned a Discus 2b and I also owned a 304CZ....

First, I do not believe you will go wrong with any of these three excellent ships. My take IMHO:

1. I've owned four ships without flaps and two ships with flaps and to be honest, I will never own another glider without them...With that said I would lean toward the LAK-17B FES and HPH304eS or the new Ventus that will be flapped and have the FES as an option.

2. If delivery lead time is an issue then the LAK-17B FES and HPH 304eS are probably the way to go as the Ventus lead time is quite lengthy.

3. I wrote an article in the March 2013 issue of Soaring on the LAK-17B FES, so you may want to read it for more background info. It's a great ship that I have truly enjoyed for 4 seasons flying in New Mexico.

4. HPH also makes wonderful gliders and I really enjoyed the great quality and handling of my 304CZ. You may want to contact a 304S owner to get their handling impressions.

Again, whichever ship you choose I am sure you will be very pleased...and you will definitely love the FES!

Good luck - Renny




On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 3:36:06 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I'm considering the purchase of an 18m FES equipped sailplane, and would like to hear thoughts and opinions about the various options available. I'm seeking a cross country machine with long legs and a highly reliable sustainer. An 18m FES sailplane should fit that requirement nicely.

I'm a somewhat green pilot, but in the year or so before a new glider could be manufactured and delivered, I will have accumulated some more experience in my club's DG-505 and DG-1000. I have eliminated the Ventus 2cx as a possibility, due to the aircraft's reputation as being unsuitable for low-time pilots. In the 18m class, that leaves the following gliders that are available with a FES system:

- Discus 2c
- Lak-17B
- HpH 304S Shark

All three appear to have similar performance, as best I can tell from published data. I don't plan to be racing any time soon, so a difference of a few points in best glide ratio is not significant to me.

According to the flight reports that I've read, all three feature docile handling that should not be a problem for a low-time pilot. The Lak-17B and HpH Shark have flaps. I have thoroughly researched the apparently controversial issue of whether flapped ships are suitable for low-time pilots, and am convinced that they are more of an asset than a liability.

In the interests of staying on topic, let's not make this thread about flaps or the FES. These topics have already been thoroughly discussed on RAS. Please start a new thread or add to an old thread if you wish to discuss further.

I'll list some of the pros and cons of each ship that I can see, but would love to hear if anyone disagrees with them, or has anything to add.

Discus 2c
- Pros: Reputation for excellent handling. Optional GRS. Possibly higher resale value and ease of selling due to its popularity.
- Cons: No flaps.

Lak-17B
- Pros: Lower cost (better value) than the other two. Half the lead time of the other two (6 vs 12 mo).
- Cons: No safety cockpit.

HpH Shark
- Pros: Good looking (purely my opinion).
- Cons: Every flight review I've read says it handles well but... every reviewer had at least one negative thing to say about the handling. Hard to draw conclusions, but some doubt as been cast in my mind.

By now it may be clear which one I'm leaning toward. However, I wouldn't have posted this if my mind wasn't open to others' opinions, so I welcome and appreciate your thoughts. In the end, the decision will come down to what's most important to me: safety and handling. I guess what I'm really seeking is a double-check on my thinking regarding this rather significant purchase.

Cheers,
Ben

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Lots of food for thought. It's a tough decision, but a fun one to make!

Now that I think about it, it's the original Ventus that has a reputation for tricky handling, not the Ventus 2, right? Perhaps I've misunderstood something. Would the Ventus 2cx be a suitable glider for a low-time pilot?

keskiviikko 9. joulukuuta 2015 7.58.42 UTC+2 kirjoitti:
Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Lots of food for thought. It's a tough decision, but a fun one to make!

Now that I think about it, it's the original Ventus that has a reputation for tricky handling, not the Ventus 2, right? Perhaps I've misunderstood something. Would the Ventus 2cx be a suitable glider for a low-time pilot?

V2 is NOT trickier than any other modern glider, they all behave well. FES is available only Ventus is 2cxa. The a-letter means that you have to try it before ordering as the cockpit is made for pygmy people.

With the Ventus 3 on the way it would be daft to order a new Ventus 2 now - with or without FES - unless it was agreed that it would be a V3 when it arrived.

The V2cx is not a flapped Discus 2c. They have completely different wings. The D2c (I bought the first production one new) is a superb handling 15/18m glider that is very suitable for a low time pilot.

Purchasing rules for gliders are quite simple...

If you want flaps buy Schleicher
If you don't want flaps buy Schempp

(Schleicher don't do FES, (Yet))

PF

At 09:30 09 December 2015, wrote:
With the Ventus 3 on the way it would be daft to order a new Ventus 2 now
-
with or without FES - unless it was agreed that it would be a V3 when it
arrived.

The V2cx is not a flapped Discus 2c. They have completely different
wings.
The D2c (I bought the first production one new) is a superb handling
15/18m glider that is very suitable for a low time pilot.

I've been told that there's a three year wait list for the Ventus 3! Wow.

The GP-14 Velo looks great, but a 13.5m sailplane does not suit my needs. I live in California where we have strong enough conditions that I will want to blast around at high speed on the good days, and an ultralight glider is not good for that.

Touch call. The easy part of your question is...why buy a standard class glider, ever? ;-). I certainly wouldn't. Less high speed performance, less climb, higher landing speeds and not really any easier to rig or less expensive.

Moving on...the HpH, from what I have seen is among the highest finish quality. Many recent buyers have been blown away. That's how you should feel, blown away! I think HpH will be increasing in popularity and is quietly selling a good deal of sailplanes. They are not aimed at hard core competitors for sure, but if your putting FES on a sailplane, that doesn't really matter much.

The Lak17b FES is also excellent. I have owned a Lak17a and found it highly under-rated by certain camps. The 17"b" suffers from the same. The '17a' was designed as a 15m glider and the 18m tips were an afterthought (although is was remarkably competitive in 18). It also had a fairly low max wingloading (for 18m) of around 10.5 lb/sq.ft with a 15m based max gross weight of 1103 lbs (a ASG29 goes to nearly 12 lb/sq.ft and 1330 lbs in 18).

The '17b' FES fixes all of those limitations and then some. It has completely redesigned wing focused on 18m class but also at home in 15 & 21m. The horizontal stab, elevator, fin and rudder are all slightly larger to accommodate for 18m and 21m. The cockpit and many other features have also been improved over the years. Also, Lak has been building FES gliders for years now. There installation is very clean and extremely well thought out. There is no more reliable sustainer on earth than FES. Smart move to consider it.

Here are some pictures of a new Lak17b from the Ontario Provincial Championships held over Labor Day weekend this September. It was beautiful and the trailer arrangement (all three tips ready to go!) was genius.

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0VGQOeMmGCEx8j