Scared of mid-airs

Frode
No sense in us getting hot and lathered about it. The comments I read
created my response to them. Your comment about me flying around the
farm in an ultralight was cute even if very inaccurate. They bother me
with all the accidents I've seen them involved in.
I recognize the fact that sometimes those of european extract speak in
a slightly different way and can seem abrasive without meaning to can
be misunderstood.
I've talked to a number of pilots who survived mid-airs and they were
all professional pilots. I also know, or knew, several pro pilots who
were killed in mid-airs. Same can be said for people I knew who were
killed in autos or on motorcycles. Also knew more than a few who were
dead by other means. That doesn't mean I'm gonna just quit life or quit
flying.
I get quite enough scares during a normal spray season to last the rest
of the year. I'll be doing it again this year with helicopters and
probably get crap scared out of me at least once or twice. The normal
season I'll fly 500 hours in 3 1/2 months and often near other aircraft
that are also spraying. We just pay attention to the location of the
other and their spray direction so we don't interfere. I suspect your
idea of a near mid-air and mine are different simply by reason of
experience and exposure.
Cheers
Rocky

"Ol Shy & Bashful" skrev i melding
oups.com...
Frode
No sense in us getting hot and lathered about it. The comments I read
created my response to them. Your comment about me flying around the
farm in an ultralight was cute even if very inaccurate. They bother me
with all the accidents I've seen them involved in.
I recognize the fact that sometimes those of european extract speak in
a slightly different way and can seem abrasive without meaning to can
be misunderstood.
I've talked to a number of pilots who survived mid-airs and they were
all professional pilots. I also know, or knew, several pro pilots who
were killed in mid-airs. Same can be said for people I knew who were
killed in autos or on motorcycles. Also knew more than a few who were
dead by other means. That doesn't mean I'm gonna just quit life or quit
flying.
I get quite enough scares during a normal spray season to last the rest
of the year. I'll be doing it again this year with helicopters and
probably get crap scared out of me at least once or twice. The normal
season I'll fly 500 hours in 3 1/2 months and often near other aircraft
that are also spraying. We just pay attention to the location of the
other and their spray direction so we don't interfere. I suspect your
idea of a near mid-air and mine are different simply by reason of
experience and exposure.
Cheers
Rocky


Thanks for taking time to post this.

I feel better now. Hope you will have a great season of flying! I am a hobby
pilot (for now) and will be doing hopefully some flying to and from work, if
I can figure out a way to collapse my back seat to transport my instrument
(I am a pro double bass player) as well as a 2 week vacation with my son
hopping around Europe.

Again, thanks for clearing things up, and hopefully we'll never meet in the
air, but a coffe or beer on the ground would always be welcome!

:-)

Frode

Frode
What is a double bass player? Interesting in that I played cello and
string bass professionally for years. I was with a symphony many years
ago (50's) playing cello and was doing jazz licks when the conductor
told me that was not professional. So, I began playing string bass and
had a lot of fun while making money. Amazing how many pilots are also
musicians and that is something I've commented on many times over the
years.
Did you ever have a near miss with a drummer? ggg
BTW....early last year I hit a pine tree while crop spraying in Oregon.
It damaged the boom and one rotor blade. I didn't know about the blade
until I shut down and we saw the damage. Unfortunately that grounded
the helicopter until new blades were put on. One of those deals where
you had to have been there? Like I said, close to you, may be two miles
to me. Again, experience and exposure.
Cheers
Rocky

Double bass is the same as string bass.

I do a lot of travelling, and use the airlines a lot.
However it's a pain to travel with the instrument, and ground crew are not
always nice to my bass.
I've just assumed the bass would not fit in my Arrow until yesterday.
I took it to the hangar, and found out that it fits perfectly though the
door, but I need to be able to fold the back seat to avoid it obstructing
the flap and trim.

Also, by laying it over the back seat, the bass is not resting in a good
position. It's got too much weight on the headstock, but if I can figure out
an easy way to fold down the seatback, like an estate car for example, the
Cherokee will be a perfect cargo hauler for me! :-)

At least on VFR days......

Frode



"Ol Shy & Bashful" skrev i melding
oups.com...
Frode
What is a double bass player? Interesting in that I played cello and
string bass professionally for years. I was with a symphony many years
ago (50's) playing cello and was doing jazz licks when the conductor
told me that was not professional. So, I began playing string bass and
had a lot of fun while making money. Amazing how many pilots are also
musicians and that is something I've commented on many times over the
years.
Did you ever have a near miss with a drummer? ggg
BTW....early last year I hit a pine tree while crop spraying in Oregon.
It damaged the boom and one rotor blade. I didn't know about the blade
until I shut down and we saw the damage. Unfortunately that grounded
the helicopter until new blades were put on. One of those deals where
you had to have been there? Like I said, close to you, may be two miles
to me. Again, experience and exposure.
Cheers
Rocky

"Ol Shy & Bashful" skrev i melding
roups.com...
Larry
I've been flying over 50 years and have about 23,000 hours logged. I
can count the number of near misses with aircraft on one finger.
Ya WANNA LIVE FOREVER?
sheeesh
Rocky aka Ol Shy & Bashful



On Wed, 10 May 2006 23:52:34 +0200, "Frode Berg"
wrote in ::

OK.

I will not speak my mind on this forum if this is what happens.

Please don't be too sensitive to what is said here. Most folks don't
intend to offend anyone.

Thanks to all the insightful posts by all you other people!

I just needed to put some statistics into perspective.
After all, I witnessed a mid air right before starting my PPL.

However, tha last week I've flown a few times, and haven't thought much
about it anymore.

I guess mr Ol Shy here is flying around his farm in the middle of nowhere at
300 feet in his ultralight.

I think you've identified the difference in your and Rocky's
experiences. A higher air traffic density leads to a higher
probability of a MAC.

I have no idea how the traffic density over Europe compares to that
over various areas of the US, but I can unequivocally state from
personal experience, that the traffic density in the skies within 100
miles of LAX can be intimidating.

When I was in France few years ago, I got the feeling that aside from
Charles De Gaulle, Le Borget and Orly most airports were not very
busy.

I only have 250 hours total, and have had 3 close encounters. Not really
"near misses" apart from one of them, but they were still to me
uncomfortably close, so you claiming 23.000 hours with none....?
Hmmm...makes you wonder...

Frode

Rocky's a good guy with a lot of experience to share. He's just
stating his view on this subject (a bit tongue-in-cheek I suspect), as
are we all. Take what you find useful, and overlook the rest.

On 10 May 2006 22:57:27 -0700, "Jay Honeck" wrote
in . com::

We ALWAYS plan three separate vacations, in three different directions.

Unfortunately, those of us based in cities along the coasts have our
possible destinations halved compared with those in the Midwest.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On 10 May 2006 22:57:27 -0700, "Jay Honeck" wrote
in . com::

We ALWAYS plan three separate vacations, in three different directions.

Unfortunately, those of us based in cities along the coasts have our
possible destinations halved compared with those in the Midwest.

And there are, of course, other problems associated with planning multiple
vacations, with the intent to actually DO only one. Such as
late-cancellation penalties for hotels, and the difficulty in arranging
lodging when one is traveling with a pet. For example.

On top of that, once you commit to a direction, you still have the problem
of dealing with weather. Unless your vacation takes you only one flight leg
away from home, you could potentially have to deal with weather after your
first leg, and regardless there's the question of getting home. Most people
don't have the luxury of picking which direction to fly AFTER the vacation.

That said, even with an instrument rating, I've found that any vacation
planned around a general aviation flight has to include plenty of
flexibility. Without an instrument rating, things get more difficult but
there's certainly no reason to think you can't take advantage of an airplane
without one. You just need to build different kinds of alternate choices
into your plans than you would with an instrument rating.

Pete

In article , Frode Berg wrote:

I've just assumed the bass would not fit in my Arrow until yesterday.
I took it to the hangar, and found out that it fits perfectly though the
door, but I need to be able to fold the back seat to avoid it obstructing
the flap and trim.

Frode,

Turns out, it's fairly easy to remove the rear seats from an Arrow. There
are 4 attach points. The rear 2 are spring-loaded and you just pull
forward/up. The front 2 are on a slide and come out easily when the rear
mounts are up. No tools required.

HTH,

Morris
(BTW, welcome back. I remember you used to post a lot around here)

On Thu, 11 May 2006 12:52:22 -0500, Journeyman
wrote in
::

Turns out, it's fairly easy to remove the rear seats from an Arrow.

What does the Arrow POH say about operating with the rear seats
removed? Is it approved? Does removing the rear seats require the
use of a different weight and balance chart for calculations? Does it
change the category from/to utility/normal? How is performance
affected?

On Thu, 11 May 2006 00:57:11 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:

You're right, it IS a semantics issue.
The issue of handling fear in flight as that pertains to a potential mid-air
is far too complicated an issue to draw down into an axiom that suggests a
student stay on the ground or in bed if the thought of a mid air "scares
them". I just wouldn't handle this situation this way.
It can be logically assumed that a pilot should never be in the air
"consumed" with a fear of a mid air collision. Anything that even approaches
the level of true fear is something no pilot can afford to entertain. But
there is another side to this double edged sword, and that is the simple
fact that although a pilot should never be experiencing true fear, the same
pilot must fly in a constant state of what I will call for the lack of a
better term, "an extremely high state of awareness to a possible mid-air".

That reminds me... In all my years of flying I've never been lost.
Now I have, on the ground, been extremely "positionally
challenged":-)). Now knowing where you have to be even though you
don't recognize any landmarks has *almost* all the criteria to call it
being lost, but not quite. However even knowing where you have to be
but not being able to verify it can bring a feeling of panic that
takes effort to suppress. Fear is unreasoning.

I have done the same thing flying by intention, (I'm mentioned this
before) down low, lots of maneuvering until I lost all sense of
direction. Then attempted to find land marks and this is in an area
where you have to work to get lost. I made two wide circles and could
not spot the edge of Saginaw Bay which had to be SSE of me. Two full
turns and I could not spot it and there is was, that feeling of unease
building toward panic. However I was still in a state where I could
reason with myself and I knew if all else failed I could use the
radios which were already on two nearby VORs. (Saginaw and West
Branch) However I refused to give in and was determined to find my way
back with nothing more than looking out the windows.

According to the time the sun should be just west of due south. So I
turned until it was in a position that should have me going due south.
Sure enough, off to the SSE was the edge of Saginaw Bay on the
horizon. So I turned to the SW and in about 10 to 12 minutes could
spot Midland on the horizon.

So what the instructor has here is the rather difficult task of suppressing
actual fear as we define fear in the accurate sense, while at the same time
impressing the student with the absolute importance of maintaining a
constant airborne vigil as protection against a possible mid-air.
This is an instructional tap dance that can leave a student confused about
the issue if nothing else, and it's important that instructors see this and
deal with it properly.

My primary instructors put me through about every situation they could
think of to ease any doubts, or rater prevent them from surfacing.

A pilot stating he is developing a "fear" of having a mid-air after 200 odd
hours of flying is a pilot who needs to be shown the difference between
fear, which is a negative for him, and constant awareness, which is the
positive desired.

It's that "developing" that concerns me and I have to wonder what
would have triggered such a response after several hundred hours. Of
course there is such a thing as thinking about negative consequences
too much and conditioning one's self to reinforce feelings we didn't
realize were there. It would be my opinion that it's time to spend
some time with a good instructor to find out why and to allay those
fears and turn them into thoughtful concern. Done early this sort of
thing is far, far easier to handle than later after it's had a chance
to become entrenched.

Over the years I've had some hair raising experiences. Although the
worst ones were in cars I have had some close calls in airplanes as
well and I've seen some really bad ones.

When I totaled the Transam by broadsiding an SUV I had just enough
time to see it coming, but no where to go except through him and being
as I was outweighed over two to one while the SUV was mostly steel and
the TA was largely plastic the odds were not in my favor.

My thoughts in plain language as I watched the hood fold up and the
top of the SUV disappear out of sight above the top of the windshield
was :"Ohhh ****! I'll bet this is gonna hurt!" and a sad "Is this all
there is?" just the instant before the air bags went off. The next
thing I remember is the car spinning across the road and me unable to
see out due to the dust from the air bags. However it did cross my
mind that it might be better that I couldn't see out. Strange how
some of those thoughts pop up. However there was nothing that I would
call fear. Certainly I was concerned, but I remained in control as
long as I physically could. After that I still hung on and rode it
out rather than trying to curl up into a ball.

You can of course sum all this up by simply saying to that pilot;
"Keep your damn eyes open, but don't get carried away with it" :-) But I
think this issue deserves some airing out, so that the pilot is able to come
to a better understanding of himself and his flying.

In this particular case I think he needs to understand that
unreasoning fears can develop and "if possible" discover why he has
developed this fear, how ever on some occasions we never do really
find the triggering event or cause. Still it's usually possible to
turn the fear into a reasonable concern that can be addressed.


Just my opinion on this FWIW.

In my estimation; as usual it's worth quite a bit.

Regards,

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Dudley

"Roger" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 10 May 2006 15:20:32 -0700, Mark Hansen
wrote:

On 05/10/06 15:02, Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
Frode
Care to come take a look at my logbooks? I've been flying all over the
world and much of it, about 13000 hours, crop dusting.
If the thought of a midair scares you, stay on the ground, or in
bed.....

I assume what you meant was that no one should let the thought of
a mid-air collision scare them to the point they cannot fly safely?

If any person is *not* afraid of a mid-air collision, they shouldn't be
flying.

We may be dealing in semantics, but fear reduces our ability to
function. In some people to the point of being unable to function.

I am well aware of the possibility of a collision and I try to remain
vigilant and concerned, but I would use the same words old Shy used.
No one who is afraid/scared of part of flying should be flying.
Address the fear in a realistic manner so it becomes no more than a
concern. Then fly.

Many students have fears and those are addressed in training and
should become things of which we are aware and for which we conduct
ourselves in a manner which should reduce or eliminate the chance of
the collision.

If you have had several near miisses in your brief career, please let
me know where you will be flying so I can avoid the area?


I've had thee close encounters since 1963. The last was nearly 10
years ago when landing. It was nearly dark and an ultralight pulled
right in front of me just a few hundred feet off the ground when I was
on final. The two previous "close encounters" were back in the 60's
and within a couple of weeks of each other.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com