Helicopters for glider pilots

On Jun 21, 7:53 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
Now a Bell 47 helicopter, THAT is hard to fly.

With zero helicopter time I had the opportunity to fly a Bell 47. In
less that 40 minutes of flight and perhaps 20 minutes on the controls,
I had done takeoff, hover, hover turns, approaches and landings. The
thing I found most difficult was keeping the engine in the 200rpm
power band with changes in collective.

I suspect that any glider pilot used to flying with a light touch on
the stick would have a similar experience.

Isn't the difficulty of flying helicopters a myth perpetuated by
helicopter pilots?

Andy

Well, a few years back, I had the opportunity to take a couple of
lessons in an R-22. I'm a power and glider pilot of no great
accomplishment, but that made me feel that not more than 20% of what I
know about flying applied to helicopters. After 2 hours, I was just
barely getting the ability to hover. I could handle it OK in the air,
but not very well near the ground. It seems like learning to ride a
bicycle: When you can't do it, you don't see how you can learn to do
it. When you can do it, you don't see what's the big deal. And you
can't tell anybody how you do it. After that 2 hours, I was just on
the edge of feeling that I was about to get it.

But, it's as much fun as anything I've ever done with my clothes on,
being equaled (but not surpassed) only by flying a glider.

Ed

I forgot to give a shout out to Chris Townsend of Hoxton Park,
Australia, my instructor in the R-22. He is the absolute master of
that machine, and the _best_ instructor it has ever been my privilege
to fly with. And that intends no insult to others like Jim Indrebo,
Jim Burch and Tom Knauff that I've flown with.

Ed

"Andy" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jun 21, 7:53 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
Now a Bell 47 helicopter, THAT is hard to fly.

With zero helicopter time I had the opportunity to fly a Bell 47. In
less that 40 minutes of flight and perhaps 20 minutes on the controls,
I had done takeoff, hover, hover turns, approaches and landings. The
thing I found most difficult was keeping the engine in the 200rpm
power band with changes in collective.

I suspect that any glider pilot used to flying with a light touch on
the stick would have a similar experience.

Isn't the difficulty of flying helicopters a myth perpetuated by
helicopter pilots?

Andy


I've been flying radio control helicopters for about twenty years. From
what I've heard on-line, most people proficient in RC hells learn the hover
in less than an hour.

I've been flying radio control helicopters for about twenty years. From
what I've heard on-line, most people proficient in RC hells learn the hover
in less than an hour.

Wow, that sounds like a good way to learn the real thing. But how
much does it cost in broken equipment to learn to fly an RC heli? And
how many hours?

Ed

Must be about like moving from air guitar to rock guitar
-- and about as significant!

It's a troll; flame on.

At 20:18 25 June 2007, Flying_Monkey wrote:

I've been flying radio control helicopters for about
twenty years. From
what I've heard on-line, most people proficient in
RC hells learn the hover
in less than an hour.

Wow, that sounds like a good way to learn the real
thing. But how
much does it cost in broken equipment to learn to fly
an RC heli? And
how many hours?

Ed

At 18:12 25 June 2007, Flying_Monkey wrote:
Well, a few years back, I had the opportunity to take
a couple of
lessons in an R-22. I'm a power and glider pilot of
no great
accomplishment, but that made me feel that not more
than 20% of what I
know about flying applied to helicopters. After 2
hours, I was just
barely getting the ability to hover. I could handle
it OK in the air,
but not very well near the ground. It seems like learning
to ride a
bicycle: When you can't do it, you don't see how you
can learn to do
it. When you can do it, you don't see what's the big
deal. And you
can't tell anybody how you do it. After that 2 hours,
I was just on
the edge of feeling that I was about to get it.

But, it's as much fun as anything I've ever done with
my clothes on,
being equaled (but not surpassed) only by flying a
glider.

Ed

I have heard from heli guys (everything from online
discussions to talking with Apache pilots), that the
R-22 is one of the most difficult and touchy choppers
to fly, analogous to the old 'riding a unicycle on
a basketball' saying. Perhaps the Bell 47 would be
a more satisfying beginner experience, allowing an
average pilot to feel like they could actually fly
helis.

Paul Hanson
"Do the usual, unusually well"--Len Niemi

"Andy" wrote in message
ups.com...
I suspect that any glider pilot used to flying with a light touch on
the stick would have a similar experience.

I have had the opportunity to take many rated pilots up for their first
glider lesson. Most caught on pretty quick, but virtually all found the tow
initially difficult. There is one who stands out in my mind as being able to
follow the tow plane on his first attempt without apparent strain.

He was a helicopter CFI.

Vaughn

Yes, the R-22 is certainly "twitchy." But I've been told that if one
can fly that, there's no helicopter that they won't be able to
handle. Or maybe one should learn on something "easier" and then be
basically barred from flying the most common helo in the world. Maybe
it's like taildraggers. If you learn from scratch in one, it's no big
deal. By the time you can fly the airplane and land it, you can
handle that or probably most any taildragger. But if you learn in a
tri-gear airplane, you're basically barred from more than half of the
Sport Pilot capable airplanes.

My first flight with Chris Townsend was an introductory flight
lesson. It had flight instruction in it, but there was also a lot of
demonstration aspects to it, like confined area landing and takeoff,
and one-skid landings to drop off a passenger. When it came time to
demonstrate an autorotation, and he had me close the throttle at about
800 feet, I was nervous, as I've watched many of those from the ground
in everything from R-22s to UH-1s. He brought that little helo to a
full stop on the ground without ever touching the throttle, and made
it seem easy. I asked him, "If I were to learn to fly this helo from
you all the way to my license, would I be allowed to do autos to
touchdown?" He replied: "I'm sure not going to even solo you in this
until you can do autos to touchdown time after time." I have no doubt
he would have been able to teach that, even though I don't think
there's a single operator in the US which does touchdown autos in
R-22s.

Ed

On 6/25/07 7:01 PM, in article
, "flying_monkey"
wrote:

Yes, the R-22 is certainly "twitchy." But I've been told that if one
can fly that, there's no helicopter that they won't be able to
handle. Or maybe one should learn on something "easier" and then be
basically barred from flying the most common helo in the world. Maybe
it's like taildraggers. If you learn from scratch in one, it's no big
deal. By the time you can fly the airplane and land it, you can
handle that or probably most any taildragger. But if you learn in a
tri-gear airplane, you're basically barred from more than half of the
Sport Pilot capable airplanes.

My first flight with Chris Townsend was an introductory flight
lesson. It had flight instruction in it, but there was also a lot of
demonstration aspects to it, like confined area landing and takeoff,
and one-skid landings to drop off a passenger. When it came time to
demonstrate an autorotation, and he had me close the throttle at about
800 feet, I was nervous, as I've watched many of those from the ground
in everything from R-22s to UH-1s. He brought that little helo to a
full stop on the ground without ever touching the throttle, and made
it seem easy. I asked him, "If I were to learn to fly this helo from
you all the way to my license, would I be allowed to do autos to
touchdown?" He replied: "I'm sure not going to even solo you in this
until you can do autos to touchdown time after time." I have no doubt
he would have been able to teach that, even though I don't think
there's a single operator in the US which does touchdown autos in
R-22s.

Ed


As a current CFIG, and a 70's era Army Huey (dustoff) pilot, in my humble
opinion helicopters are indeed harder to learn. The control touch is simply
much more sensitive in all axes than in gliders.

Now, to fly either one well is probably equally challenging.

Learning to hover and learning to tow are remarkably similar in terms of the
skill set required to succeed.

You know how a new glider student on tow slips a little out of position,
then overcorrects and ends up out of position on the other side, then
overcorrects a little more, and ends up even farther out of position on the
first side, etc? Ever increasing oscillations on the tow rope until the CFIG
takes over, recovers, and lets the student try again?

The exact same oscillating cycle occurs when a new student first tries to
hover a helicopter. And the exact same correction by the CFI-H.

I can explain this a lot better, but I have to use my hands, and they seem
to be on a keyboard right now.

There is a video on the internet somewhere (perhaps 5Z will point it out,
because he showed it to me?) that shows a guy who tries to make his first
flight ever in a Hughes 269/300, SOLO. Gets into the oscillation, and since
there is no CFI-H to save his bacon, he wrecks his new helicopter after
about 20 seconds (or less) of total flight time.

JMHO,
Bullwinkle