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#211
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George Patterson wrote:
What's insurance like over there? At the moment, liability insurance requirements for aircraft up to 2 tons MTOW is around 3 Million dollars (approximately). This may or may not change in the future, but I tend to think it won't. For heavier airplanes, it is higher. This includes third party liability (if you fall onto your neighbour's house, or more realistically, if you taxi into your neighbour's plane) and passenger injury liability on private flights. Passengers on commercial flights is another story. This is about the same as for cars. In Europe, cars are required to have liability insurance when they are moved on public roads. I think this is a good idea. To fully appreciate these numbers, you should bear in mind that liability in Europe is just this, liability. It pays the expenses, and that's it. Not 10 millions because your dog can't sleep anymore. (Because I know absolutely nothing about the US legal system, I feel sufficielntly qualified to express it like this: We don't have dunderhead liability laws nor dunderhead juries who pay millions to any dunderhead guy who burnes his mouth because nobody told him that coffee usually tends to be hot.) Stefan |
#212
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G Farris wrote:
I think it's true, even obvious, that the cost of flying in Europe is the main reason why there are relatively few who take it up. Of course flying cost much more in Europe than in the USA. Roughly said, VFR on light singles cost twice as much. But I don't think cost is the main reason. It is one of several reasons. Those who really want to fly usually can manage it. (OTOH, twins or IFR are out of the range for most people.) I don't think it's ridiculous to say the authorities in France are "killing" general aviation. Many - probably most - private pilots in France feel this way, and it's clearly expressed in the aviation press. Don't believe everything that's written in the press, even aviation press. Yes, regulations are tight. Airspace in Europe is very congested, and it has been a political decision that commercial aviation gets priority. But nobody wants to "kill" something. There is also an attitude difference in pilots. Many Europeans are more oriented toward leisure flying, Exactly. Private flying here is mostly recreational flying. And as such, costs are looked at with another view. Do I prefer to spend 5'000 for flying or do I prefer to go skiing with my family? This decision pushes out all those who don't *really* want to fly. On the other hand, don't forget that soaring is much more popular here than in the USA. When you look at flying as a recreational hobby, then soaring is much more rewarding than motorized flight (and cheaper, too). There is a healthy soaring community in most parts of Europe, but especially in France. Stefan |
#213
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George Patterson wrote:
What's insurance like over there? The annual premium (both liability and hull coverage) for a Katana DA20 owned by a flying club in Germany used to be the equivalent of around $5500 (slightly over 4000 Euro). Greetings, Markus |
#214
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In article , Martin Hotze wrote:
they apparently have other priorities. They have faster trains, for example. How does this compare with the US? I think this is part of the point; if you made avgas tax free across Europe, you still wouldn't get anywhere near US levels of GA. That's because it'll still be much faster, more reliable and cheaper to travel by train for business purposes and move small freight items by road (since the distances are far smaller), and larger freight items by rail. GA would still be largely personal, in-your-free-time types of activities. -- Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net "Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee" |
#215
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"Martin Hotze" wrote in message ... "Jay Honeck" wrote: It's the relative PROPORTION of pilots, aircraft, and airports that is out of whack in France. If aviation weren't dead in France, they should have the same PROPORTION of pilots, aircraft and airports as the US. they apparently have other priorities. They have faster trains, for example. How does this compare with the US? No doubt France has fast trains and an excellent rail system. Problem is when I was there they went on strike every other day which made them useless. |
#216
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"George Patterson" wrote in message news:dcG9e.13130$Fm5.9947@trndny09... Dave Stadt wrote: If you believe GA is in good shape in France and other parts of the EU go to the AOPA WEB site and read about the new liability insurance requirements the EU has placed on GA aircraft. $119 million in liability insurance required for a 182. Doesn't sound healthy to me. Read through the actual PDF document. For a private operator, they require a minimum of 100,000 SDRs/passenger and 1,000 SDRs for luggage. For coverage of non-passengers, you need 3 million SDRs for a 182. The current exchange rate is 1.51746 dollars to one SDR. While the rate is still crazy, no way can I make it add up to $119 million. Seems to me that's a policy for $4,552,380 with sublimits of $151,746 per seat, plus a luggage allowance. In any case, what's important is the amount of the premium, not the coverage amount. Liability cases are not settled by juries in Europe, nor are the awards very high (by American standards). I'd bet the premiums are far lower as well. Stefan? Wolfgang? Martin? Dylan? What's insurance like over there? George Patterson There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the mashed potatoes. AOPA changed the story. Yesterday it said $119 million for a 182, this morning it is "Almost $5 million." |
#217
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Every indicator I can find shows that the French have killed general
aviation -- or nearly so -- for everyone but the very rich. If I didn't know it before, I'd do so now: You've never been in France. I have. You're just plain wrong. Okay, Stefan -- the ball is in your court. Show me one statistic that disproves that aviation in France hasn't been decimated by the French government's predatory aviation gas tax strategy. I've searched, and can't find one. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" "Stefan" wrote in message ... Jay Honeck wrote: Stefan |
#218
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(Because I know absolutely nothing about the US legal system, I feel
sufficielntly qualified to express it like this: We don't have dunderhead liability laws nor dunderhead juries who pay millions to any dunderhead guy who burnes his mouth because nobody told him that coffee usually tends to be hot.) You'll get no argument from me on this one, Stefan. We do, indeed, have the most dunderheaded legal system ever devised by man. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#219
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It proves no such thing. American enumeracy at work.
The land mass of France, as far as I can determine from a quick sweep, is one 18th that of the US. Is their number of pilots and/or airports an eighteenth of those in this country? Since when do potential pilots decide to become pilots based on the available *land mass*? What kind of logic is THAT? In my world, aviation enthusiasts become pilots because they can't resist the call. Unless, of course, they can't find the money to pay for it... Taxation? How did such a silly premise get started? Excessive taxation (or, if you will, social engineering) controls EVERYTHING in society. When you tax something by 300%, you very effectively limit its use. As a fellow Iowan you can relate to this example: What is going to happen to cigarette smoking in Iowa if (when?) the legislature double the tax on a pack of smokes, as they are debating this very week? Predictions range from a 13% to 26% drop in smoking. Works the same with avgas. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#220
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and Diamond comes to mind .... an Austrian company (also with a production
plant in Canada). And they make a terrific product. But it's not by accident that they have focused their attention on North America, where semi-healthy general aviation still exists. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
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