How do you find the limits of areas on a chart?

"Dan" wrote in message
oups.com...
I think if you're going to thread tight areas in an unfamiliar metro
area these days, you'd better have a GPS with airspace depiction.
Sure, you may be able to do it via pilotage, but then again you could
easily screw up and bust class B (or worse).

I've done a lot of GPS-less flying under the Class B for New York, Boston,
Chicago, San Francisco, and Toronto (well, Toronto is Class C, but it's like
a US Class B). You have to pay attention, but it's not inordinately
difficult. (Most of the planes I rent don't have a GPS, and I have yet to
get a portable one.)

If I didn't feel prepared to do the navigation without a GPS, I wouldn't
feel comfortable even with a GPS. (What if it failed?) It could still be
usefully redundant, of course; but I don't think it's essential.

--Gary

In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

The chart has a metric butt load of landmarks. Hell, I'd go so far to say
that it is mostly landmarks.

I don't see that many,

Then you need to have your vision checked. What do you think all that
ink on the VFR chart is for?

but even if that were true, do you really have
time to continually check them all to see how close you are to nearby
airspace boundaries, while in flight?

That depends on whether you are a competent pilot or not. But why do
you think it's necessary to "continually check them all"?

rg

In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:

Ron Garret writes:

Do you mean how do you find the boundary as depicted on the chart, or
how do you relate the depicted boundary to an actual physical location
out in the real world?

How do I relate it to the real world? In other words, how do I know,
as I fly along, whether I'm inside or outside a boundary? Very often
the boundaries cross largely empty areas of the chart, with no precise
indications of how to locate the boundary in the real world.

"Largely empty" is not the same as empty.

If the latter, when all else fails, some pilots fall back on an advanced
technique that is all but forgotten in this age of GPS. It's called
"looking out the window for landmarks."

But the charts don't have that many landmarks, and the boundaries
rarely seem to be based on landmarks; instead, they seem to have been
surveyed.

There are more landmarks there than you think. Why don't you pick an
example of a boundary that you're having trouble with? Talking about
this in generalities doesn't seem to be productive.

rg

Mxsmanic wrote:
Robert M. Gary writes:

The sectional chart is used with a plotter. The plotter measures
distance and can figure direction.

I googled for this and found only software.

I presume you mean the mechanical arm-like device that I've seen being
using with flat charts on tables in movies? Certainly that might be
useful, but what about during flight? Chart tables would be awkward
in the cockpit (although large aircraft with navigators might have
them).

Two answers. First, when I'm flying my Mooney around at near the speed
of sound I just have a rough idea of where the airspace is and use ATC
and the GPS to avoid it.
However, when I fly the J-3 (and when I first started flying) I carried
a small plotter. You can use it in flight. In fact I'm required to make
sure my students can use it in flight for navigation and diversion. You
can use it in flight.
I still carry a small plotter in the pocket of my seat. I have multiple
scales on it so I can use it for IFR charts too but it also works for
sectionals.

I have one that has a Wizwheel built in and I use it regularly. Its
easier for me to figure TAS using the wizwheel then puching numbers
into the GPS to computer it. The Wizwheel is still a close friend of
mine. When I flew the GPS, the Wizwheel, my watch, and my plotter were
the *only* navigation tools I had.

-Robert, CFII

In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:

How do I know if I'm in the southwestern tip of the Turtle MOA on the
chart that covers Arizona, for example?

You are mightily confused, my friend. The Turtle MOA is (mostly) in
California, not Arizona.

There are no landmarks given.

Do you see Cadiz lake?

I've looked very carefully at sectionals.

Apparently not.

rg

Judah writes:

You would observe the Pinto Mountains intersecting the Sheep Hole Mountains,
and know that the edge of the MOA is about halfway between that and the Cadiz
Lake... It's pretty distinct, actually, if you know how to read a sectional.

You're too far south, and too far east. The western tip is actually
at N34°14'00" W115°30'00", and the southern border runs along the
aforementioned parallel, but without a reliable indicator of your
exact latitude and longitude in the cockpit, this doesn't help much
(although it can be readily seen from the sectional in this case).

The eastern extreme of the Pinto Mountains meets the southern extreme
of the Sheep Hole Mountains at about N34°04' W115°33', giving your
suggested position an error of about five miles. The adjacent V514
airway is only about eight miles across, so that's a pretty big error.

Unfortunately, by the time you've figured this all out, you've
collided with a fighter jet.

--
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Roy Smith writes:

What I have found works well is to just wing it. If I guess wrong, an F-16
pulls up beside me and gives me directions. It's really a very convenient
system.

Has that actually happened? Don't you risk being cited for the
airspace violation?

--
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Judah writes:

No, you are having trouble because you don't know how to read a sectional.
That became obvious in your question about the Turtle MOA.

I'm an excellent map reader. If I followed your suggestion, I'd have
a guided missile passing through the fuselage.

--
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Judah writes:

You can use multiple points to determine your location with a fair amount
of precision, and you can estimate with a fair amount of accuracy your
distance from the landmarks.

Even as you are flying? There are a lot of airspaces to worry about.

Where is this?

Many places. By the time you've carefully calculated whether or not
you're in one of them, you're no longer there, but you've violated two
other airspaces. Even in small private planes, things move quickly.

How wide, exactly?

A good ten miles or so, at least, depending on many factors.

--
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Mxsmanic wrote:
Roy Smith writes:

What I have found works well is to just wing it. If I guess wrong, an F-16
pulls up beside me and gives me directions. It's really a very convenient
system.

Has that actually happened? Don't you risk being cited for the
airspace violation?


He's being sarcastic. I hope... G

The F-16 is a subtle hint that something has gone terribly awry.