Bipolar/Schizoaffective Disorder and Soaring

Here is the scoop. I spoke with my medical flight examiner some time
ago about the use of medications that treat bi-polar syndrome and
taking them while operating an aircraft or glider. He was not 100%
sure on the ruling even though it is stated on the FAA's medical pages
that those drugs used to treat bi-polar syndrome are not allowed. He
then in turn contacted someone in OK city with the FAA and they told
him and I quote "If the person is on medications that are banned by
the FAA, they need to ground themselves for 30 days before flying".
The doctor then asked "What about flying gliders". The lady in OK City
said that "it did not matter what they were flying as you are not
allowed to operate an aircraft while taking medications banned by the
FAA".
If you want to fly and think this is a load of crap, contact your
local FAA medical examiner and ask them. I really hope that the people
on this page who say it is alright to take these medications and
operate an aircraft as PIC don't live in the United States. If you do,
and you make a mistake, you could screw everything up for everyone
else. Get the facts from the horses mouth which happens to be the FAA
or better yet, if you are in the United States and are a member of
AOPA, contact their legal office and ask them.


(DL152279546231) wrote in message ...
By the way my Psychiatrist is a pilot and feels I am safe to fly provided I
take my medicines daily and I do...

But, I do need some clarification.
A medical certificate is not required for soaring is what I have been told
reguardless of medications or illness provided the pilot feels he can fly
safely.

I have never heard of a list of medications which bar a pilot from flying
gliders...

However I have done some research and read the FAA won't even issue a medical
to an applicant on unipolar depression so I did not plan to apply to face
certain rejection

Also, however, I am wondering if these psychotropic medications don't cause
problems with heatstroke and dehydration

I was hoping maybe an annonymous person would step forward and say they were
flying and it was not a problem

Lithium, Effexor, and Zyprexa are the ones I have taken for over two years

Also, by the way, my Pyschiatrist said getting back into flying would be an
excellent anti-depressant

I have followed this thread with interest. Although I am not an AME, I work
with pilots on FAA Medical Certification issues.

How 61.53 applies to glider pilots contains large gray areas, on which the
FAA has not provided clear guidance. You'll get different answers depending
on who you ask: AMCD, FSDO, DPE, etc.

Here's a point to remember: Don't force the FAA to clarify their guidance
61.53 and glider pilots! If you ask the question, you'll get an answer,
and probably one you won't like. Preserve your ability to apply judgment,
and leave it vague.

That stated, the issue here is not the meds for bipolar. Yes, all meds used
for bipolar are DQ (like the ones mentioned below). More important though is
the diagnosis itself. Part 67 is a very confusing regulation, and difficult
to read, but both it and the Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners (last
revised Sept 2003) make clear that there are 15 absolute disqualifying
diagnoses, one of which is bipolar disorder. Just about everything else that
they DQ for falls under an umbrella clause which gives them the authority to
DQ for things other than the 15 absolute DQ's.

As a CFI-G, when someone who has lost their medical asks about flying
gliders, I tell them that if they have one of the 15, they probably have
reason to know that they are not safe to operate a glider, especially if the
FAA has formally denied them certification. If it is not one of the 15, it's
probably their decision, but we discuss the details. Meds are also
discussed.

If a pilot with a well-diagnosed case of bipolar disorder came to a club or
commercial operation at which I was working as a CFI-G, I would refuse to
fly with that person, and recommend to the operators that that person not be
allowed to fly there.

Sorry, just my professional opinion.

Bullwinkle


On 6/11/04 9:53 PM, in article
, "B. Iten"
wrote:

Here is the scoop. I spoke with my medical flight examiner some time
ago about the use of medications that treat bi-polar syndrome and
taking them while operating an aircraft or glider. He was not 100%
sure on the ruling even though it is stated on the FAA's medical pages
that those drugs used to treat bi-polar syndrome are not allowed. He
then in turn contacted someone in OK city with the FAA and they told
him and I quote "If the person is on medications that are banned by
the FAA, they need to ground themselves for 30 days before flying".
The doctor then asked "What about flying gliders". The lady in OK City
said that "it did not matter what they were flying as you are not
allowed to operate an aircraft while taking medications banned by the
FAA".
If you want to fly and think this is a load of crap, contact your
local FAA medical examiner and ask them. I really hope that the people
on this page who say it is alright to take these medications and
operate an aircraft as PIC don't live in the United States. If you do,
and you make a mistake, you could screw everything up for everyone
else. Get the facts from the horses mouth which happens to be the FAA
or better yet, if you are in the United States and are a member of
AOPA, contact their legal office and ask them.


(DL152279546231) wrote in message
...
By the way my Psychiatrist is a pilot and feels I am safe to fly provided I
take my medicines daily and I do...

But, I do need some clarification.
A medical certificate is not required for soaring is what I have been told
reguardless of medications or illness provided the pilot feels he can fly
safely.

I have never heard of a list of medications which bar a pilot from flying
gliders...

However I have done some research and read the FAA won't even issue a medical
to an applicant on unipolar depression so I did not plan to apply to face
certain rejection

Also, however, I am wondering if these psychotropic medications don't cause
problems with heatstroke and dehydration

I was hoping maybe an annonymous person would step forward and say they were
flying and it was not a problem

Lithium, Effexor, and Zyprexa are the ones I have taken for over two years

Also, by the way, my Pyschiatrist said getting back into flying would be an
excellent anti-depressant

B. Iten wrote:

Here is the scoop. I spoke with my medical flight examiner some time
ago about the use of medications that treat bi-polar syndrome and
taking them while operating an aircraft or glider. He was not 100%
sure on the ruling even though it is stated on the FAA's medical pages
that those drugs used to treat bi-polar syndrome are not allowed.

Brian,

I am having trouble finding this FAA list of banned medications. Could you
point me to it? A URL or specific section in the FAR would help.

Thanks.

-Doug

Doug,

You're having trouble finding the FAA medication list, because it doesn't
exist. Various groups, such as AOPA and Virtual Flight Surgeon's at
http://www.aviationmedicine.com , have UNOFFICIAL lists of approved and
disapproved medications, but they are swags which don't bear the approval of
the FAA. All such unofficial lists contain errors, because the FAA policies
are in such a constant state of re-review.

The FAA won't publish such a list because their internal, secret, but
official list changes so frequently (new drugs to either be approved or
banned; old previously approved drugs with newly found side effects, which
are now banned; etc).

Groups trying to publish such lists do so by submitting a waiver request
for, say, Zestril (a blood pressure medication). When it comes back
approved, they put zestril on the list. Then they submit someone for
depression with, say, Zoloft. It comes back disapproved, and they put Zoloft
on the no-go list. Over time, a rough approximation of FAA medication policy
is built up, but it is never 100% accurate.

Hope this clears things up.

Bullwinkle

On 6/12/04 3:24 AM, in article , "Doug
Hoffman" wrote:

B. Iten wrote:

Here is the scoop. I spoke with my medical flight examiner some time
ago about the use of medications that treat bi-polar syndrome and
taking them while operating an aircraft or glider. He was not 100%
sure on the ruling even though it is stated on the FAA's medical pages
that those drugs used to treat bi-polar syndrome are not allowed.

Brian,

I am having trouble finding this FAA list of banned medications. Could you
point me to it? A URL or specific section in the FAR would help.

Thanks.

-Doug

"DL152279546231" wrote in message
...
The controlling and ONLY FAR you need to consider medically while flying
gliders is 14 CFR 61.53(b).

Allan

So now I am still confused. Do I read this FAR to say if you know you have a
medical condition but don't think it will interfere with your flying, fly. OR,
if you have a medical condition which would make you ineligible for a medical
certificate you cannot fly even in an operation not requiring a medical
certificate...

You should be seeing a huge grey area, perhaps one big enough to fly a
glider through, perhaps not. I flew gliders for years whilst taking a "banned"
medication. IMHO I did so legally and safely because research told me that the
FAA was waivering that drug and that condition as long as certain medical tests
were done; tests that I had already done more than once. My doctor and I were
in agreement that it was OK for me to fly. Furthermore, it would have been
difficult for the FAA (or an insurance company) to say I was violating 61.53(b)
when the FAA was routinely granting waivers for exactly that same condition.
Later, this was all verified when I decided to fly SEL and actually went through
the bureaucratic hocus-pocus to get the waiver and the medical. Are they
waivering your condition and your medications? I don't know, but I'll bet that
AOPA could help you find out.

If the FAA is absolutely not waivering anybody with your condition and/or
anybody taking the drugs you take, I have to reluctantly say that it is probably
best for you to keep your feet on the ground.

Vaughn



(b) Operations that do not require a medical certificate. For operations
provided for in §61.23(b) of this part, a person shall not act as pilot in
command, or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember, while
that person knows or has reason to know of any medical condition that would
make the person unable to operate the aircraft in a safe manner.

Thanks. Yes, that does help a great deal. And I'm not at all surprised
that this whole topic is a very grey area (that topic being piloting gliders
and medical conditions and medications and so forth).

My work involves dealing with US and state government regulations in a
totally different discipline (motor vehicle emissions), but my experience
there has also been the government regs are often very unclear and subject
to a great deal of interpretation.

Off this topic but sort of related: I know this is stating the obvious, but
I'll do it anyway. Even if someone has no illness and is taking no
medications, it could very well be that at some given times they are not
"fit to fly". Reasons include mental duress due to work or personal
reasons, lack of sleep, and so forth. I'll not get into the old age issue
as I believe that has been adequately covered on r.a.s. before.

Thanks again.

-Doug

Bullwinkle wrote:


Doug,

You're having trouble finding the FAA medication list, because it doesn't
exist. Various groups, such as AOPA and Virtual Flight Surgeon's at
http://www.aviationmedicine.com , have UNOFFICIAL lists of approved and
disapproved medications, but they are swags which don't bear the approval of
the FAA. All such unofficial lists contain errors, because the FAA policies
are in such a constant state of re-review.

The FAA won't publish such a list because their internal, secret, but
official list changes so frequently (new drugs to either be approved or
banned; old previously approved drugs with newly found side effects, which
are now banned; etc).

Groups trying to publish such lists do so by submitting a waiver request
for, say, Zestril (a blood pressure medication). When it comes back
approved, they put zestril on the list. Then they submit someone for
depression with, say, Zoloft. It comes back disapproved, and they put Zoloft
on the no-go list. Over time, a rough approximation of FAA medication policy
is built up, but it is never 100% accurate.

Hope this clears things up.

Bullwinkle

On 6/12/04 3:24 AM, in article , "Doug
Hoffman" wrote:

B. Iten wrote:

Here is the scoop. I spoke with my medical flight examiner some time
ago about the use of medications that treat bi-polar syndrome and
taking them while operating an aircraft or glider. He was not 100%
sure on the ruling even though it is stated on the FAA's medical pages
that those drugs used to treat bi-polar syndrome are not allowed.

Brian,

I am having trouble finding this FAA list of banned medications. Could you
point me to it? A URL or specific section in the FAR would help.

Thanks.

-Doug

The fact that US glider pilots don't need a medical certificate
doesn't seem to alter the applicability of the FAA drugs list. Ref
61.53 and 91.17.

You can drive whilst using all the medications the OP mentioned, if you
judge that they do not make you feel dizzy or drowsy.

I can see why the barriers are set higher for powered aircraft than for
drivers - I'm not sure that it follows that they should be set equally
high for glider pilots. For example, gliders tend to fly further from
major airports and over less populated terrain.

In contrast it's pretty easy to take out 5 people if you mess up whilst
driving.

Just speculating - I don't suppose it makes any difference in the eyes of
the law.

vne

Still it seems a group such as the SSA would have had to have run into the
question so often from power pilots having been denied medicals FAA would have
had to give an answer.

Started a new thread on the topic by the way to broaden the question to any
drug/condition

"DL152279546231" wrote in message
...
Still it seems a group such as the SSA would have had to have run into the
question so often from power pilots having been denied medicals FAA would
have
had to give an answer.

Started a new thread on the topic by the way to broaden the question to
any
drug/condition

I have asked this question of senior AME's and the answer is that there is
no difference in medical standards, just in the means of certifying those
standards are met. A glider pilot may "self-certify" but a power pilot
needs an AME to do the certification. If a pilot knows or has reason to
know that a condition exists that would prevent the issuance of a 3rd class
medical then self-certification is not an option.

We glider pilots have a major privilege in self-certification. It is not
too much of a reach to say that if the privilege is abused, we may lose it.

Bill Daniels

If you are suggesting that a glider pilot, in order to fly, must "self
certify" that he or she meets
the requirements of a class III physical, it may be the dumbest thing that
I've ever heard.
Even dumber than doing spin training at 800 ft AGL. (Which now seems to
have been rescinded, thank goodness.)
Note that I am not saying that you are dumb, merely that you are saying dumb
things.

The guiding regulation is 14 CFR 61.53(b) and yes, 91.17 applies.

Your AME is incorrect; you do not have to "self certify" anything, you
merely must abide by 61.53(b).
If you were required to meet the medical rules of a Class III physical, the
FARs would say so.

That means that, if you have a cold and can't clear your ears, you shouldn't
fly. If you have cut your hand
and are unable to handle the controls, you shouldn't fly. If you have
multiple personality disorder and your personality of the day is suicidal,
you shouldn't fly.

Note how 61.53(b) differs substantially from 61.53(a). It differs for a
reason you, the pilot, make the determination that you are fit to fly, not
your AME, not the FAA and, thankfully, not those of you who choose to
rewrite the regulations to conform to whatever predjudice you have at the
moment.

The CARs, FARs and now CFRs were conceived of as being permissive, that is,
if it is not expressly forbidden, it is presumed to be OK to do. If you
have a rating and/or pilot license of any kind, it is presumed that you
intend not to kill yourself or others.

So be careful out there, don't go rewriting the regulations and don't give
the FAA any reason to reexamine the regulations as they stand.

Allan




"I have asked this question of senior AME's and the answer is that there is
no difference in medical standards, just in the means of certifying those
standards are met. A glider pilot may "self-certify" but a power pilot
needs an AME to do the certification. If a pilot knows or has reason to
know that a condition exists that would prevent the issuance of a 3rd class
medical then self-certification is not an option.

We glider pilots have a major privilege in self-certification. It is not
too much of a reach to say that if the privilege is abused, we may lose it."

Bill Daniels