Aviation crash videos on-line

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:vip_c.291091$eM2.269081@attbi_s51...
You are injecting oranges into an apples discussing here.
the issue of whether or not crashes are entertaining to the masses
is a
whole different issue than the ethics of putting crash video out on
the
net for entertainment or to project one's "hobby".

I see them as different sides of the same coin. One begets the other,
IMHO.

I would not argue that crash footage isn't "thrilling". I would
argue
however, that those who engage in both providing such footage on the
net
for general viewing , and viewing such footage for the purpose of
the
"thrill" involved, and trying to pass their prurient interest off as
being associated with flight safety are not my kind of people.

If it's hypocrisy you're angry about, I'm with you. But I don't think
the
original poster was trying to pass his site off as being associated
with
flight safety in any way.

Don't try selling ME this crap as a safety issue. I know better. I
stood
at the crash site of a close friend during the Cape May Air Races in
71.
His body was still in the cockpit of his AT6 crushed like a dishrag.
I
held his wife in my arms as she tried hysterically to break away and
climb in the cockpit with her husband. I can still feel her shaking
and
screaming to this day. I watched as a spectator....one of these
"photographers" we're discussing here....ran over to where we were
standing and took a picture, not of the wreck, but of HER!!!!

Some of the greatest photographs of our time -- many Pulitzer Prize
winners -- have been snapped in just such a fashion.

Not to defend that photographer's actions, or to minimize your
friend's
anguish -- personally, I couldn't do such a thing, emotionally or
technically -- but this event would clearly be labeled as "breaking
news" by
most journalists, and there are writers and photographers out there
whose
main job it is to cover these types of events.

Somewhere on this planet, a complete stranger, a person with a
camera
who didn't know her, and could have cared less about her, has a
picture
he took without her permission, at the most horrible and personal
moment
of her life,that allows him to share that moment in time with her.
I hope he chokes on it!

I understand your emotion, but I think it's misplaced. Flying
airplanes in
an air race, wing-tip to wing-tip, is INCREDIBLY dangerous. The odds
of an
accident or incident are high, the odds of violent death are not good.
Your
friend knew the risks, and knowingly took them.

He also knew -- as did you -- that the race course was ringed with
spectators and journalists with cameras. To expect photographers to
turn
away from a spectacular airplane crash is pretty unreasonable. To
expect a
photographer NOT to snap a picture of someone trying to run toward a
plane
wreck is unrealistic.

To expect these same photographs to be destroyed, or never published,
is
even less realistic. The internet is just the newest form of
publishing, a
natural progression from Guttenberg until today. This guy's website
is
just an electronic book -- photos printed with electrons instead of
ink.

Although I understand your distaste, Dudley, you are railing against
human
nature. A darker side of it, for sure -- but it's human nature
nonetheless.
You're not going to change it.

I'm not arguing that these things don't exist. Nor am I arguing their
reasons for existence. YOU ARE!!!
Apparently for some reason you just can't grasp the fact that what I
posted initially was simply a personal statement of distaste. It's YOU
who keep arguing a position for crash photos outside the flight safety
context. I'm simply responding to YOUR seeming objection that I find the
use of these photos distasteful to me personally and feel the need to
"educate" me in the finer points of life.

One more time Jay; I'm saying that it's DISTASTEFUL to me personally and
that I for one don't wish to associate with it. Whether or not YOU have
an opposing viewpoint is of absolutely no consequence to me or how I
view the situation at all. I appreciate the fact that you do however,
obviously have an opposing viewpoint and I respect your right to express
it. But when you start branching your "opinions" out of your puddle
jumper cockpit and into my world as a demonstration pilot as an equal,
I'm afraid you have crossed the line with me. You are not my equal, and
on issues like these I will never see you as such.
That being said, and considering I don't particularly relish being
lectured by a pleasure pilot on the idiosyncrasies and dangers involved
in a business I have known thousands of hours in as a participant and
you know only as a spectator, if you don't object I'll just allow you
your feelings on the matter whatever they are,and bid you a fond
farewell.
I don't mean this last comment in a particularly mean way Jay; actually
it's kind of sarcastically humorous as I see it; but If I ever need an
"expert" opinion on flying high performance airplanes in a dangerous
environment, I'll be sure to notify you right away. Until then, I'll
just have to struggle by on what I know about the subject already :-)

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

Dear Mr. Henriques,

I am beginning to get fed up with your moralistic lections. I have put the
videos on-line to share them with other people, and hoping to receive some
new videos from other collectors. The reason that I used the aviation safety
newsgroup to announce the video webpage was because I know that crashes have
everything to do with aviation safety and people in this group may be extra
interested to look at them for many different reasons.

Whatever my intentions are to share the videos, it is not something that
requires your approval. The fact is that aviation crashes are fully ON-TOPIC
on this newsgroup. I don't have to put up with the opinion of some hypoctit
pilot who is involved in demonstration flights and air races, intended to
push flying to the limit. If it wasn't for guys like you, about 50% of all
crash videos would have never been shot because the crashes simply didn't
occur.

Flying is relatively safe, but pushing flight to the limit for the fun of it
just isn't. Don't complain if something goes wrong when guys like you are
willingly taking more risk than necessary during air races and demonstration
flights. And stop pointing fingers at people who are interested to see
thrilling aviation just because it simply exites them. Pilots like you
provided it to them in the first place!

And regarding the photographer that shot the photos of your friend's widow,
these guys are called journalists. It is people like them that fill the
newspapers with eye catching photos that make the readers feel the emotion
involved in incidents and accidents. It gives face to the cold text of the
news. For example: Just think of what 9/11 would have looked like to the
world without photos or video. The world just wouldn't be half as upset as
it is now.

I will continue to try and shoot beautiful and artistic aviation photographs
like can be seen at my photogalleries, and I will also continue to try and
keep the aviation videos on-line. Having learned from the first publication,
I think I will create a webpage at which I will publish one new video every
week. With about 100 videos available already, I have enough material to
publish for two years straight. Just keep checking
http://www.dappa.nl/crash.htm for the videos, or to see my photogalleries.

To all other readers: If you have any aviation crash videos for me, please
send them to .

Fly safe,
Iwan Bogels




"Dudley Henriques" schreef in bericht
ink.net...

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:zem_c.101871$9d6.78381@attbi_s54...
What, precisely, do you see wrong with viewing aircraft crashes
for
reasons
other than flight safety?

I feel no need to justify my reasoning to you on the subject of
viewing
aircraft crash videos outside the safety context, any more than I
require you justify yourself to me.

Actually, I was just curious as to your reasoning.

I don't pretend to understand *why* viewing vehicle crashes is
entertaining
to the masses -- but it clearly is. Evidence of this is clearly seen
by the
success of NASCAR (now the number one sport in the world, based on
attendance), or the popularity of "demolition derbies" at any of
hundreds of
county fairgrounds across America.

Further evidence can be seen by the proliferation of "America's Worst
Police
Chases"-type of programming. These police videos -- many of them
depicting
auto wrecks and gunfights -- are hugely popular.

It's a peculiar phenomenon, I'll give you that -- but to "detest
people like
that" is to despise a huge percentage of Americans.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

You are injecting oranges into an apples discussing here.
the issue of whether or not crashes are entertaining to the masses is a
whole different issue than the ethics of putting crash video out on the
net for entertainment or to project one's "hobby".
You are simply going off topic and stating a possible reason for WHY
people might find crash video exciting and entertaining. Then you are
backing this up by telling me that YOU find these crash videos
"thrilling".
Thrilling isn't the issue here. Ethics is the issue, or more correctly,
the lack of ethics.
I would not argue that crash footage isn't "thrilling". I would argue
however, that those who engage in both providing such footage on the net
for general viewing , and viewing such footage for the purpose of the
"thrill" involved, and trying to pass their prurient interest off as
being associated with flight safety are not my kind of people.
Crash footage has a real and genuine use as a flight safety tool, and
presented in the correct context, BY PEOPLE IN THE SAFETY BUSINESS,
crash photography is welcomed by the safety community and the aviation
community at large. There is much to be learned from crash footage
presented in this manner.
But don't tell me above all people that some photographer out there
presenting his "wares" on the net that consist of gigs of crash video
that he clearly states is his "hobby" has been presented as a public
service or in a safety associated context. That's just plain bull ****!
These people are engaged in enhancing their images within their
community...that's it....that's all......nothing more than that. What's
important to them is the film speed.....the equipment used.......and
yes; the sheer excitement of the event itself...the more dramatic the
event, the more kudos for the photographer.
Don't try selling ME this crap as a safety issue. I know better. I stood
at the crash site of a close friend during the Cape May Air Races in 71.
His body was still in the cockpit of his AT6 crushed like a dishrag. I
held his wife in my arms as she tried hysterically to break away and
climb in the cockpit with her husband. I can still feel her shaking and
screaming to this day. I watched as a spectator....one of these
"photographers" we're discussing here....ran over to where we were
standing and took a picture, not of the wreck, but of HER!!!!
Crash video has a distinct place in our lives as pilots. We can learn
from it if it's presented in the proper context, but to allow ourselves
to be witness to a human tragedy for no other purpose than to enjoy our
"hobby" or satisfy our desire for excitement is not my idea of ethical
behavior.
BTW, in closing...that pilot friend's widow, I'll just call her Jere ,
remained a lifelong friend of ours. We finally lost her several years
ago to a stroke. We miss her very much.
Somewhere on this planet, a complete stranger, a person with a camera
who didn't know her, and could have cared less about her, has a picture
he took without her permission, at the most horrible and personal moment
of her life,that allows him to share that moment in time with her.
I hope he chokes on it!
And this is just ONE instance of many I've experienced through the years
concerning "crash photographers with a "hobby"!!!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...
Dear Mr. Henriques,

I am beginning to get fed up with your moralistic lections. I have put
the
videos on-line to share them with other people, and hoping to receive
some
new videos from other collectors. The reason that I used the aviation
safety
newsgroup to announce the video webpage was because I know that
crashes have
everything to do with aviation safety and people in this group may be
extra
interested to look at them for many different reasons.

Whatever my intentions are to share the videos, it is not something
that
requires your approval. The fact is that aviation crashes are fully
ON-TOPIC
on this newsgroup. I don't have to put up with the opinion of some
hypoctit
pilot who is involved in demonstration flights and air races, intended
to
push flying to the limit. If it wasn't for guys like you, about 50% of
all
crash videos would have never been shot because the crashes simply
didn't
occur.

Flying is relatively safe, but pushing flight to the limit for the fun
of it
just isn't. Don't complain if something goes wrong when guys like you
are
willingly taking more risk than necessary during air races and
demonstration
flights. And stop pointing fingers at people who are interested to see
thrilling aviation just because it simply exites them. Pilots like you
provided it to them in the first place!

And regarding the photographer that shot the photos of your friend's
widow,
these guys are called journalists. It is people like them that fill
the
newspapers with eye catching photos that make the readers feel the
emotion
involved in incidents and accidents. It gives face to the cold text of
the
news. For example: Just think of what 9/11 would have looked like to
the
world without photos or video. The world just wouldn't be half as
upset as
it is now.

I will continue to try and shoot beautiful and artistic aviation
photographs
like can be seen at my photogalleries, and I will also continue to try
and
keep the aviation videos on-line. Having learned from the first
publication,
I think I will create a webpage at which I will publish one new video
every
week. With about 100 videos available already, I have enough material
to
publish for two years straight. Just keep checking
http://www.dappa.nl/crash.htm for the videos, or to see my
photogalleries.

To all other readers: If you have any aviation crash videos for me,
please
send them to .

Fly safe,
Iwan Bogels




"Dudley Henriques" schreef in bericht
ink.net...

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:zem_c.101871$9d6.78381@attbi_s54...
What, precisely, do you see wrong with viewing aircraft
crashes
for
reasons
other than flight safety?

I feel no need to justify my reasoning to you on the subject of
viewing
aircraft crash videos outside the safety context, any more than
I
require you justify yourself to me.

Actually, I was just curious as to your reasoning.

I don't pretend to understand *why* viewing vehicle crashes is
entertaining
to the masses -- but it clearly is. Evidence of this is clearly
seen
by the
success of NASCAR (now the number one sport in the world, based on
attendance), or the popularity of "demolition derbies" at any of
hundreds of
county fairgrounds across America.

Further evidence can be seen by the proliferation of "America's
Worst
Police
Chases"-type of programming. These police videos -- many of them
depicting
auto wrecks and gunfights -- are hugely popular.

It's a peculiar phenomenon, I'll give you that -- but to "detest
people like
that" is to despise a huge percentage of Americans.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

You are injecting oranges into an apples discussing here.
the issue of whether or not crashes are entertaining to the masses
is a
whole different issue than the ethics of putting crash video out on
the
net for entertainment or to project one's "hobby".
You are simply going off topic and stating a possible reason for WHY
people might find crash video exciting and entertaining. Then you
are
backing this up by telling me that YOU find these crash videos
"thrilling".
Thrilling isn't the issue here. Ethics is the issue, or more
correctly,
the lack of ethics.
I would not argue that crash footage isn't "thrilling". I would
argue
however, that those who engage in both providing such footage on the
net
for general viewing , and viewing such footage for the purpose of
the
"thrill" involved, and trying to pass their prurient interest off as
being associated with flight safety are not my kind of people.
Crash footage has a real and genuine use as a flight safety tool,
and
presented in the correct context, BY PEOPLE IN THE SAFETY BUSINESS,
crash photography is welcomed by the safety community and the
aviation
community at large. There is much to be learned from crash footage
presented in this manner.
But don't tell me above all people that some photographer out there
presenting his "wares" on the net that consist of gigs of crash
video
that he clearly states is his "hobby" has been presented as a public
service or in a safety associated context. That's just plain bull
****!
These people are engaged in enhancing their images within their
community...that's it....that's all......nothing more than that.
What's
important to them is the film speed.....the equipment used.......and
yes; the sheer excitement of the event itself...the more dramatic
the
event, the more kudos for the photographer.
Don't try selling ME this crap as a safety issue. I know better. I
stood
at the crash site of a close friend during the Cape May Air Races in
71.
His body was still in the cockpit of his AT6 crushed like a dishrag.
I
held his wife in my arms as she tried hysterically to break away and
climb in the cockpit with her husband. I can still feel her shaking
and
screaming to this day. I watched as a spectator....one of these
"photographers" we're discussing here....ran over to where we were
standing and took a picture, not of the wreck, but of HER!!!!
Crash video has a distinct place in our lives as pilots. We can
learn
from it if it's presented in the proper context, but to allow
ourselves
to be witness to a human tragedy for no other purpose than to enjoy
our
"hobby" or satisfy our desire for excitement is not my idea of
ethical
behavior.
BTW, in closing...that pilot friend's widow, I'll just call her Jere
,
remained a lifelong friend of ours. We finally lost her several
years
ago to a stroke. We miss her very much.
Somewhere on this planet, a complete stranger, a person with a
camera
who didn't know her, and could have cared less about her, has a
picture
he took without her permission, at the most horrible and personal
moment
of her life,that allows him to share that moment in time with her.
I hope he chokes on it!
And this is just ONE instance of many I've experienced through the
years
concerning "crash photographers with a "hobby"!!!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

This post is so filled with your generalities about race and airshow
pilots that I don't believe it even requires an answer from me one way
or the other. You have made a complete case that shows anyone with half
a brain exactly what I was talking about when I first confronted you.
As for the "journalist" that shot the photo of my friend's widow; he was
no journalist; he was a spectator with a camera. He dragged his two
small children over with him to see the wreck. I took the camera from
him personally and smashed it on the ground. He was at that point
confronted by two more of our friends and barely escaped with his bones
intact.
So much for your "journalism"!
As I said, feel free to spew your stuff anywhere you like, and you're
right; you don't need my approval to do it. But you'll find me there
when you do just the same.
Welcome to Usenet! You don't dictate policy here. You'll get your share
of positive reaction and have to take the negative along with it, or
you'll get VERY frustrated around here my friend. Unfortunately for you,
I go with your territory, so get used to me. Anytime I see you pushing
crash video without a stated reason for doing so, I'll comment anyway I
please.

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:zem_c.101871$9d6.78381@attbi_s54...
What, precisely, do you see wrong with viewing aircraft crashes for
reasons
other than flight safety?

I feel no need to justify my reasoning to you on the subject of viewing
aircraft crash videos outside the safety context, any more than I
require you justify yourself to me.

Actually, I was just curious as to your reasoning.

I don't pretend to understand *why* viewing vehicle crashes is
entertaining
to the masses -- but it clearly is. Evidence of this is clearly seen by
the
success of NASCAR (now the number one sport in the world, based on
attendance), or the popularity of "demolition derbies" at any of hundreds
of
county fairgrounds across America.

Is this true? Do NASCAR attendances really exceed those of football
(soccer)?


Further evidence can be seen by the proliferation of "America's Worst
Police
Chases"-type of programming. These police videos -- many of them
depicting
auto wrecks and gunfights -- are hugely popular.

It's a peculiar phenomenon, I'll give you that -- but to "detest people
like
that" is to despise a huge percentage of Americans.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Is this true? Do NASCAR attendances really exceed those of football
(soccer)?

I have no way to verify that -- it's just what the media has been spouting.

I suppose it's not surprising, since a single race can have several hundred
thousand "fans" in attendance.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:40p_c.102614$9d6.102101@attbi_s54...
Is this true? Do NASCAR attendances really exceed those of football
(soccer)?

I have no way to verify that -- it's just what the media has been
spouting.

I suppose it's not surprising, since a single race can have several
hundred
thousand "fans" in attendance.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"



Jay, I checked the NASCAR site
(http://www.nascar.com/2004/promos/20...world_drivers/) and I can
only see them claiming to be the US's top spectator sport. I'll buy that -
like you, I have no way to verify it.

However, I can't believe it's the *world's* top spectator sport:
football/soccer must pull in many more, whether on TV or at the stadiums.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:40p_c.102614$9d6.102101@attbi_s54...
Is this true? Do NASCAR attendances really exceed those of football
(soccer)?

I have no way to verify that -- it's just what the media has been
spouting.

I suppose it's not surprising, since a single race can have several
hundred
thousand "fans" in attendance.
--
Jay Honeck

The media out here in SoCal are claiming that the weekend's
attendance at the Fontana Raceway will exceed the count at three NFL Super
Bowls.

According to:
http://netscape.nascar.com/2004/news...30/california/
"92,000 -- The announced grandstand seating capacity of California
Speedway. "

The actual count is 92,109 according to the Speedway officials, but hey.....

Oh, I should also point out that is the number of seats in the
grandstands -- it does not include all the RVs parked around the infield.

It's all the cross posting

"Aviv Hod" wrote in
message ...
Doug FM wrote:
And the site is down after one day, that's gotta be some sort of record




Ever hear of the "Slashdot effect?" When a link makes it to the front
page of a popular website like slashdot.org , the web server of the
relevant page has a tendancy to start combusting into a huge puff of
vaporized silicon :-) They can take down a website in minutes... I was
surprised that all those videos didn't take down the server earlier.

-Aviv

US tax dollars at work and play

but also shows the risk and sacrifice of eternal diligence in the defense of
freedom

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:I8k_c.116580$Fg5.83066@attbi_s53...
No...you're not the least bit interested in flight safety, and you'll
never sell that line to me in a million years.

What, precisely, do you see wrong with viewing aircraft crashes for
reasons
other than flight safety?

Humans are fascinated with video-taped accidents of ALL kinds, simply
because they are so rare. The ability to capture an accident on video,
for
later viewing, is one of the true marvels of the last 100 years.

Personally, I view aviation videos for the thrill, as well as for any
"flight safety" aspects I may glean from them. Quite frankly, the odds of
my obtaining any useful information from watching an F-4 bolt over the
side
of an aircraft carrier are almost nil -- but that doesn't make watching
the
video any less fascinating.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"SelwayKid" wrote in message
om...
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
ink.net...
"SelwayKid" wrote in message
om...
"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...
Dear aviation enthusiast,

Over the years we have collected loads of spectacular video footage.
This
includes about 100 video clips with aviation mishaps, accidents and
crashes.
Today we have opened http://www.dappa.nl/crash.htm which shows the
first 15
videos. More videos will follow soon, so keep checking for updates !

Best regards,

Iwan Bogels & Tieme Festner
DAPPA

I visited the site and hope to see more of the clips. I find them to
be of instructional value in accident prevention. There are clips I
have seen in the past and have not been able to find since. Hopefully
they will be available with your research and efforts.
R. Kemp CFII/RAM

These people are in no way whatsoever even remotely involved with
aviation flight safety. By their own word, they exist solely for the
purpose of enhancing their "hobby" of aviation photography. A crash to
them is nothing more than an opportunity to record the sensationalism
involved which is exactly what they are doing on their web site.
I see not ONE publication on their site that could be linked to the
subject of flight safety.
I suggest that if you want to view crash photography that IS related to
flight safety, you purchase a copy of "Zero Error Margin" by Gen Des
Barker, a book on air safety that weighs 7 pounds and is the complete


snip....
Hey Dudley
Thats cool if we disagree. However, reading a 7 pound book takes a lot
longer than seeing some of the clips. It doesn't matter to me how or
why the clips were obtained unless they engineered the
accidents/incidents purely for prurient interest. The fact remains the
accidents/incidents happened and were captured on film, then gathered
in one place for those of us who don't have time or desire to wade
through any 7# book. Like you, I've been involved in aviation for
about 50 years. We've exchanged credentials and I think have mutual
respect for them so its a matter of personal opinion based on our
personal experiences.
The fact that so many people want to see these clips, regardless of
their personal reasons or motivations indicates a tremendous interest.
The clips work far better than trying to replicate them on a
blackboard or with hand gestures. I feel they are a great training
aid.
Best professional regards
R. Kemp
and definitive account of the air safety issues involved with many of
the videos and photographs these two people are putting up for viewing
on their site without any reference at all to the flight safety issue.
I've been involved directly with flight safety issues for fifty years
and am in fact deeply involved with Gen Barker's book on airshow safety.
I know the people involved in the safety business, and these two are NOT
pushing flight safety!
Please understand I have no problem with you having an opposing opinion
about what these people are presenting. I just don't agree with you.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

like you guys to take this off USENET though