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#22
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(Kees Mies) wrote in
om: The Socata Rallye has a stall warning! Their famous automatic leading edge slats are it. At least, that's what I use them mainly for. They are great speed brakes too. I do not pay much attention to the air speed at take off or on short final. When I see the leading edge go forward about 4 inches from the corner of my left eye, I know it is time to have a look at the dials. To my opinion these are the best stall warnings one can have. Instead of a lot of noise(a Rallye is noisy enough) and some red light, they keep the stall away for about 15 kts. This said, do not try to flare a Rallye at too high speed. The slats pop out and you go up again. And they keep the Socata leading-edge-slat-roller-division going. Regards, Kees MS880B Marty Shapiro wrote in message ... Roy Smith wrote in news:roy- : Researching a question from a club member, I read in the FAR's: §**23.207 *Stall warning. [...] (b) The stall warning may be furnished either through the inherent aerodynamic qualities of the airplane or by a device that will give clearly distinguishable indications under expected conditions of flight. Every plane I've ever flown has a mechanical stall warning device (some visual, some aural), but apparantly it's possible to certify a plane without one. Does anybody know of any real life examples of planes certified without stall warning devices? The SOCATA Rallye does NOT have a stall warning device! It has automatic leading edge slats which will pop out at larger angels of attack, but you are still well above stall. A power off stall is very interesting in this aircraft. You start to get stall buffett and, if you simply hold the yoke all the way back, you descend a little over 1000 fpm with the nose level on the horizon. You can turn with just the ailerons as you are descending. Under the definition of stall warning in the US FAR §23.207 (which references §23.1185), the automatic leading edge slat deployment is NOT a stall warning. Although the automatic leading edge slat deployment meets the requirement of §23.207(c) where warning is required at least 5 knots above stall, it does NOT meet the requirement of §23.207(d) "When following procedures furnished in accordance with §23.1585, the stall warning must not occur during a takeoff with all engines operating, a takeoff continued with one engine inoperative, or during an approach to landing." 23.1585 refers to the required aircraft operating procedures which include Vx, Vy, etc. In the Rallye 235E, the slats will automatically deploy at rotation and remain deployed at both Vx and Vy. As you transition from Vy to cruise climb, they retract. They also deploy on landing at about Vref. At Vx, Vy, and Vref, the automatic deployment of the leading edge slats violate the FAR requirements for a stall warning. The slats will sometimes extend & retract in light chop at cruise speed (Va and above). I've never had a stall horn in a Piper or Cessna sound off in light chop. -- Marty Shapiro Silicon Rallye Inc. (remove SPAMNOT to email me) |
#23
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Marty Shapiro wrote in message ...
(Kees Mies) wrote in om: The Socata Rallye has a stall warning! Their famous automatic leading edge slats are it. At least, that's what I use them mainly for. They are great speed brakes too. I do not pay much attention to the air speed at take off or on short final. When I see the leading edge go forward about 4 inches from the corner of my left eye, I know it is time to have a look at the dials. To my opinion these are the best stall warnings one can have. Instead of a lot of noise(a Rallye is noisy enough) and some red light, they keep the stall away for about 15 kts. This said, do not try to flare a Rallye at too high speed. The slats pop out and you go up again. And they keep the Socata leading-edge-slat-roller-division going. Regards, Kees MS880B Marty Shapiro wrote in message ... Roy Smith wrote in news:roy- : Researching a question from a club member, I read in the FAR's: §**23.207 *Stall warning. [...] (b) The stall warning may be furnished either through the inherent aerodynamic qualities of the airplane or by a device that will give clearly distinguishable indications under expected conditions of flight. Every plane I've ever flown has a mechanical stall warning device (some visual, some aural), but apparantly it's possible to certify a plane without one. Does anybody know of any real life examples of planes certified without stall warning devices? The SOCATA Rallye does NOT have a stall warning device! It has automatic leading edge slats which will pop out at larger angels of attack, but you are still well above stall. A power off stall is very interesting in this aircraft. You start to get stall buffett and, if you simply hold the yoke all the way back, you descend a little over 1000 fpm with the nose level on the horizon. You can turn with just the ailerons as you are descending. Under the definition of stall warning in the US FAR §23.207 (which references §23.1185), the automatic leading edge slat deployment is NOT a stall warning. Although the automatic leading edge slat deployment meets the requirement of §23.207(c) where warning is required at least 5 knots above stall, it does NOT meet the requirement of §23.207(d) "When following procedures furnished in accordance with §23.1585, the stall warning must not occur during a takeoff with all engines operating, a takeoff continued with one engine inoperative, or during an approach to landing." 23.1585 refers to the required aircraft operating procedures which include Vx, Vy, etc. In the Rallye 235E, the slats will automatically deploy at rotation and remain deployed at both Vx and Vy. As you transition from Vy to cruise climb, they retract. They also deploy on landing at about Vref. At Vx, Vy, and Vref, the automatic deployment of the leading edge slats violate the FAR requirements for a stall warning. The slats will sometimes extend & retract in light chop at cruise speed (Va and above). I've never had a stall horn in a Piper or Cessna sound off in light chop. Hi, Nice research. I did some myself. Under KEES' FAR §58112.fgg(c) is stated: The installation of a stall warning device has NO relationship with the pilots'/operator/owners' sense of humor. |
#24
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..
GLIDERS Gliders use no mechanical nor electric stall warning devices. They use the glider. By feeling the air, feeling control response, remaining cognizant of roll pitch and yaw attitudes relative to airpeed, watching airspeed, feeling g forces; watching horizon, watching changing clouds, birds, smoke, sun angle, wind shadow on water, other aircraft, ground, terrain features and all outside glider; keeping glider in coordinated flight by centering yaw string on front center of canopy, listening, feeling, dancing on clouds, to keep flying they keep flying, generally without stall. It is blessed to not have a stall horn aboard. Gliders often have stick w/elevator trim, ailerons, rudder operated by adjustable pedals, spoilers or dive brakes, many have manually operated flaps with positive and negative position settings for climb cruise and fast running, retractable landing gear, disposable water ballast, 12 vdc battery elec systems, flight computers linked to gps maps and sensitive rate of climb indicators w/adjustable sound. Gliders are usually configured as inline two seaters for training, or supine single seaters with long plexi canopy for personal use including glider racing or cross country flying. Modern high performance gliders are made of glass composite fiber materials (reinforced plastics). Thereupon one finds a plane without a stall horn. |
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