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#61
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buy or rent a 2006 182
"Vaughn Simon" wrote in message ... "Matt Barrow" wrote in message ... Also, I have seen many flight schools come and go over the years. So...let's see: They're pricing it wrong? Often a school's rental price structure has more to do with local market forces than it has to do with costs and a proper return on capital investment. Another factor is that great aviation folks are (way too often) not great business people. And that can make renting more expensive in other ways than direct costs (i.e., losing the aircraft availability). |
#62
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buy or rent a 2006 182
"Matt Barrow" wrote in message ... And that can make renting more expensive in other ways than direct costs (i.e., losing the aircraft availability). Then most of us just move on to the next flight school/FBO. A quick check flight and you are on your way. (Of course, if you live in a small town your choices may be somewhere between limited and nonexistent.) Vaughn |
#63
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buy or rent a 2006 182
"Vaughn Simon" wrote in message ... "Matt Barrow" wrote in message ... And that can make renting more expensive in other ways than direct costs (i.e., losing the aircraft availability). Then most of us just move on to the next flight school/FBO. A quick check flight and you are on your way. (Of course, if you live in a small town your choices may be somewhere between limited and nonexistent.) I used to (ten years ago) live in a medium size town (170,000) and there was one FBO and one club. I recently moved from a small town (30,000), where there was one FBO and one club with three aircraft. The point is that renting has to be more expensive than buying (and using it 100+/- hours) as the costs are the same. That FBOs and clubs are inefficient business people is only peripherally a factor. |
#64
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buy or rent a 2006 182
"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message news On Tue, 29 May 2007 11:14:14 -0700, xyzzy wrote: If an owner can fly that much, every month, consistently, month in and month out, then I'm very jealous of his lifestyle. Heh That's a good point. That would be someone using it for business, not merely for pleasure (outside some Hollyweird celebrity). |
#65
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buy or rent a 2006 182
Matt Barrow wrote: The point is that renting has to be more expensive than buying (and using it 100+/- hours) as the costs are the same. That FBOs and clubs are inefficient business people is only peripherally a factor. In the aggregate, you're probably right. Because of the higher insurance and maintanence requirements, plus profit for the owner, it probably costs more for a rental aircraft to fly 50 hours in a month than it would cost an owner of the same plane time to fly 50 hours in the same month. But who flies 50 hours a month? For individual pilots who don't fly 50 hours a month, and are therefore sharing those expenses with other pilots, renting is cheaper for several reasons. First, the airplane they are renting is flying more hours than an individually owned airplane would, making the per-hour cost cheaper as the fixed costs are spread out among more hours. The regular flying also keeps the engine in better shape. Second, the party renting the airplane can take tax write-offs most individual owners can't (depreciation and maint expense), another way of lowering the per-hour cost. This may even completely offset the profit margin, which would make increased insurance and maintanence the only extra cost of renting. Third, the individual renter has little or no fixed costs. If an individual renter doesn't fly in a specific month, he pays nothing (or a nominal amount if club dues are involved). I think you're making the mistake of making the wrong comparison. You're comparing the aggregate costs to all renters with the cost to an individual who flies the same number of hours as the rental airplane flies in total. That's not a real comparison, hardly anyone flies his owned airplane as much in a month as a rental plane flies, month in and month out. You have to compare what it costs one specific pilot to fly x hours a month in a rental airplane with what it would cost the pilot to own the same airplane type and fly it the same number of hours in a month. And you can't use the peak month someone flies, average hours per month over a long period is what makes sense, because everyone has periods of inactivity for whatever reason. And unless the number of hours is much higher than any of us can realistically fly, renting is going to be cheaper on that comparison, which is the only one that matters to the individual pilot. Not to say that there aren't other, good reasons to own (flexibility, availability, pride of ownership, etc). But renting is almost always going to be cheaper. |
#66
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buy or rent a 2006 182
"xyzzy" wrote in message oups.com... Matt Barrow wrote: The point is that renting has to be more expensive than buying (and using it 100+/- hours) as the costs are the same. That FBOs and clubs are inefficient business people is only peripherally a factor. In the aggregate, you're probably right. Because of the higher insurance and maintanence requirements, plus profit for the owner, it probably costs more for a rental aircraft to fly 50 hours in a month than it would cost an owner of the same plane time to fly 50 hours in the same month. But who flies 50 hours a month? For individual pilots who don't fly 50 hours a month, and are therefore sharing those expenses with other pilots, renting is cheaper for several reasons. First, the airplane they are renting is flying more hours than an individually owned airplane would, making the per-hour cost cheaper as the fixed costs are spread out among more hours. The regular flying also keeps the engine in better shape. Second, the party renting the airplane can take tax write-offs most individual owners can't (depreciation and maint expense), another way of lowering the per-hour cost. This may even completely offset the profit margin, which would make increased insurance and maintanence the only extra cost of renting. Third, the individual renter has little or no fixed costs. If an individual renter doesn't fly in a specific month, he pays nothing (or a nominal amount if club dues are involved). I think you're making the mistake of making the wrong comparison. You're comparing the aggregate costs to all renters with the cost to an individual who flies the same number of hours as the rental airplane flies in total. That's not a real comparison, hardly anyone flies his owned airplane as much in a month as a rental plane flies, month in and month out. You have to compare what it costs one specific pilot to fly x hours a month in a rental airplane with what it would cost the pilot to own the same airplane type and fly it the same number of hours in a month. And you can't use the peak month someone flies, average hours per month over a long period is what makes sense, because everyone has periods of inactivity for whatever reason. And unless the number of hours is much higher than any of us can realistically fly, renting is going to be cheaper on that comparison, which is the only one that matters to the individual pilot. Not to say that there aren't other, good reasons to own (flexibility, availability, pride of ownership, etc). But renting is almost always going to be cheaper. Assuming the rental fleet GETS USED enough. Would you rent a car from Avis, Hertz, Enterprise rather than buy your own? :~) I had to rent an SUV from Enterprise for four days...cost me as much as five weeks running my own...which was MUCH nicer. Note to the anal retentive: I know the comparison is sorta "apples-bananas" (Cliche avoidance). BTW, the nicest rental aircraft I've seen lately is a 2006 T182. ANd, I keep remembering what Jeff Foxowrthy said about buying a used rental car -- it's like picking a hooker for a wife: you don't want to stick your key in THAT ignition. |
#67
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buy or rent a 2006 182
Matt Barrow wrote: "xyzzy" wrote in message oups.com... Matt Barrow wrote: The point is that renting has to be more expensive than buying (and using it 100+/- hours) as the costs are the same. That FBOs and clubs are inefficient business people is only peripherally a factor. In the aggregate, you're probably right. Because of the higher insurance and maintanence requirements, plus profit for the owner, it probably costs more for a rental aircraft to fly 50 hours in a month than it would cost an owner of the same plane time to fly 50 hours in the same month. But who flies 50 hours a month? For individual pilots who don't fly 50 hours a month, and are therefore sharing those expenses with other pilots, renting is cheaper for several reasons. First, the airplane they are renting is flying more hours than an individually owned airplane would, making the per-hour cost cheaper as the fixed costs are spread out among more hours. The regular flying also keeps the engine in better shape. Second, the party renting the airplane can take tax write-offs most individual owners can't (depreciation and maint expense), another way of lowering the per-hour cost. This may even completely offset the profit margin, which would make increased insurance and maintanence the only extra cost of renting. Third, the individual renter has little or no fixed costs. If an individual renter doesn't fly in a specific month, he pays nothing (or a nominal amount if club dues are involved). I think you're making the mistake of making the wrong comparison. You're comparing the aggregate costs to all renters with the cost to an individual who flies the same number of hours as the rental airplane flies in total. That's not a real comparison, hardly anyone flies his owned airplane as much in a month as a rental plane flies, month in and month out. You have to compare what it costs one specific pilot to fly x hours a month in a rental airplane with what it would cost the pilot to own the same airplane type and fly it the same number of hours in a month. And you can't use the peak month someone flies, average hours per month over a long period is what makes sense, because everyone has periods of inactivity for whatever reason. And unless the number of hours is much higher than any of us can realistically fly, renting is going to be cheaper on that comparison, which is the only one that matters to the individual pilot. Not to say that there aren't other, good reasons to own (flexibility, availability, pride of ownership, etc). But renting is almost always going to be cheaper. Assuming the rental fleet GETS USED enough. Would you rent a car from Avis, Hertz, Enterprise rather than buy your own? :~) If I drove as often as I fly, yes. |
#68
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buy or rent a 2006 182
"xyzzy" wrote in message oups.com... Matt Barrow wrote: "xyzzy" wrote in message oups.com... Matt Barrow wrote: The point is that renting has to be more expensive than buying (and using it 100+/- hours) as the costs are the same. That FBOs and clubs are inefficient business people is only peripherally a factor. Assuming the rental fleet GETS USED enough. Would you rent a car from Avis, Hertz, Enterprise rather than buy your own? :~) If I drove as often as I fly, yes. So we come back to the original question: At what point does buying become more effective than renting? We've seen a sh&tlo*d of 30-50 hour/year pilots giving their reasons for renting, but Dan is NOT in that category. It seems there's a lot of pilots with only slightly more flight hours than MXMANIAC. :~( |
#69
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buy or rent a 2006 182
Matt Barrow wrote:
It seems there's a lot of pilots with only slightly more flight hours than MXMANIAC. :~( Excellent point. The fact is, that those of us that own our own planes do it because it is a part of our lives, not because it makes sense based upon some numbers arranged on a piece of paper. I drive a 1999 Ford Ranger... paid for and well maintained. My insurance on that truck is $250 a year. I don't play golf, and I don't have a boat or do a lot of other hobbies that consume a lot of time or money. For that reason owning a plane is worth it and within my budget. We take a lot of weekend trips that would not be possible if all you could do was drive a car to get there (who wants to drive 6 hours one way just for a weekend getaway!). Renting an airplane for the whole weekend or a three day weekend is not always possible or finacially feasable. |
#70
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buy or rent a 2006 182
"kontiki" wrote in message ... Matt Barrow wrote: It seems there's a lot of pilots with only slightly more flight hours than MXMANIAC. :~( Excellent point. The fact is, that those of us that own our own planes do it because it is a part of our lives, not because it makes sense based upon some numbers arranged on a piece of paper. I drive a 1999 Ford Ranger... paid for and well maintained. My insurance on that truck is $250 a year. I don't play golf, and I don't have a boat or do a lot of other hobbies that consume a lot of time or money. For that reason owning a plane is worth it and within my budget. We take a lot of weekend trips that would not be possible if all you could do was drive a car to get there (who wants to drive 6 hours one way just for a weekend getaway!). Renting an airplane for the whole weekend or a three day weekend is not always possible or finacially feasable. Renting isn't feasible for over-night trips either, especially if you have a lot of them. The first year when we (wife & I) started our business, we rented. Had massive problems with availability, and RON charges were sometimes more than we made in profit some months. Then too, my first buy was a T210 that was a real lemon. |
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