How to teach XC with lead/follow technique?

I agree with every thing you said except that simulation can never
generate that gut wrenching, oh **** feeling, when things don't work
out.Â* Of course, a better prepared pilot will be less likely to get into
those situations due to repetition and better judgment learned during
simulation.Â* (Hopefully).

On 10/4/2017 3:21 PM, Scott Manley wrote:
The airlines, military, and professional flight training businesses all understand that flight training (teaching/learning) is best done using simulation. All the fundamental skill prerequisites for XC, mentioned above, and all the XC-specific skills can be learned more efficiently and effectively in simulation.

That said, flight simulation is an instruction a tool. It is not a substitute for a qualified instructor. And, flight simulation is not the entire solution to the problem (only about 80% of the solution). It is the best environment for "learning" what needs to be learned. The aircraft is the best environment for "applying" what has been learned in simulation.

My recommendation is to use simulation to teach XC candidates what they need to know. Have them demonstrate required skills, knowledge, and judgement in simulation before wasting anyone's time/money in an actual aircraft.

By the way, all of advise given in this thread is great stuff. Nearly all of it could be incorporated into a simulation-based XC instructional program, today, and at little or no cost.

Simulation-based training can be done in groups. It can be done at any time of the day, any day of the week, and any time of year. It is not dependent on the availability of equipment (tow planes, two-place XC-capable gliders). It is not weather-dependent. It can be done at-a-distance, i.e., online with students and instructors being anywhere in the country.

And at the top of my simulation-based advantages is the opportunity to build mental experience. Flying is largely a mental exercise; knowing what to do, how to do it, and perhaps most importantly when to do something. Simulation affords the learner the time and opportunity to acquire the level of mental experience that creates safe, competent pilots.

The challenge, of course, is the reluctance of instructors to adopt simulation as a teaching/learning environment. I have yet to find a solution to that unfortunate reality.

Respectfully submitted for your consideration.

--
Dan, 5J

I wish more clubs/operations would try out simulator based training. For some folk it seems to be a technology thing, don't know how to touch it/frightened of the technology, some cost, some worried about financial loss/billing for time etc. I expect people who can incorporate that into training and XC training programs will be overall more successful in the long term.

Years ago, Erik Mann and some other folks ran a series of spring XC days at PGC (Philadelphia Glider Council) that included a morning lecture from experienced pilots (Roy McMaster was one). They had lined up a bunch of experienced pilots to play lead/follow with about a dozen "students" of varying skill levels. IIRC, the higher the skill level of the students, the higher the skill level of the leader. A couple of guys got to follow Doug Jacobs around for a while! Also, IIRC, the ideal students/leader ratio declined with experience, as did the distance from the gliderport and other factors. The gliders were not all the same performance but weren't so far apart that it made flying together impossible.

Two things I recall:
1. Pulling dive brakes more than once to lead one of my charges around a thermal at lower altitude. The gap between leader and followers seemed to expand steadily based on everything from differences between sailplanes, to climbing not as well, to failing to leave the thermal immediately, to flying a little slower to just be safe, and to stopping for a turn or two in a weak thermal for the same reason. And, yes, thermaling skills tended to deteriorate as altitude declined and anxiety mounted. I suspect using simulators would have helped a lot! But there's just no substitute for getting low out of gliding range from an airport.

2. Less experienced students were very nervous about final glides, even with high arrival altitudes, if they couldn't see the home airport (not unusual back East). This was just on the leading edge of the GPS era so that may have changed. But sometimes we forget what a leap of faith is required to turn your back on the home airport, to pass up a weak thermal even when you've got altitude and good prospects ahead, to cruise faster than best glide, and to commit to a final glide based strictly on some calculations and the promise that the finish is out of site but reachable.

On at least one occasion, the organizers had managed to suggest enough alternate air-to-air frequencies that we could keep in touch with our students without annoying the rest of the fleet.

I thoroughly enjoyed myself and the feedback we got was almost universally high. I don't recall any outlandings but we got lucky on the wx. We did it early enough in the season that no one had to forgo a record day. Participation in local contests and in the Governor's Cup series that summer rose as a result.

Yes, it's an investment. But it's fun for everyone and doesn't cost much, if anything. The organizational burden is the biggest one: arranging for a venue--including a classroom as well as gliderport (and whatever machinations are needed to launch non-club members), making sure there are enough towplanes to get everyone launched fairly quickly even while a training operating is going on, getting the word out and then getting firm commitments, etc.. Erik has great enthusiasm as well as a high tolerance for frustration for these kinds of organized efforts but not everyone does.

Chip Bearden

I was taught this way: I had barely medium thermal skills and a new to me 44:1 ship. Our group usually picks an airport 20-40 miles away and flies there, and then the next and so on. I could never keep up. On my first flight in my new ship, a (older, uglier) friend in a 50:1 ship followed me to the first TP giving advice from my 6:00. He'd say "deviate to that xxx cloud at 1:30, but don't circle, just do slow "S" turns in the lift (because we were still high). Later he'd say "veer to the the dark cloud at 11:00 and if the lift is 3 knots or greater, circle there, otherwise keep going". When I was 75% of the way to the first turn point, he told me to turn to the next TP early (the rest of the guys were ahead of us by several miles). He went to TP1 and abandoned me for awhile. The gang caught up to me 1/2 way to TP2, passed me and I never saw any of them again, but I had learned enough to get around a couple more TPs and get home. I went from helpless to mediocre in about 25 miles on the way to TP1. The comments on thermal skills are probably the most important skill any newbie needs. If new pilot has thermal skills (finding and circling technique), he/she can fly XC. Thanks to F1 for feeding my addiction.

Finding and connecting with thermals is the prerequisite XC skill. Once you

have that, the rest of the learning can begin.

Digging yourself out of holes, most preferably with a good field in reach,
is
useful. Much better is staying out of the holes.

Winch is good practice for finding and catching thermals low down.

I have helped "fledge" a number of pilots this way. But when we lead follow, I follow. You can advise, suggest, and correct from behind. If necessary, you can pop the spoilers, and direct up close and personal.

I have since bought into a piece of a duo and done dual instruction in that.. Each has its advantages. But in our club, our club gliders are 1-34 ish performance, when you take someone along for a ride in the duo, the get a great introduction in what is possible, but take away, "what us possible in a duo". If you lead follow in their glider, they know it is possible for them.

Keep in mind, that as a middle of the score sheet guy, I am not teaching racing strategy, but trying to get capable pilot to venture out of glide from home. I am looking for the maximum success experience. Make it around the course, useing the 3 golden rules:

Get high
Stay high
And don't get low

Most importantly, fly to the next airport when safe, now this is home. Rinse repeat.

These are folks that are without there silver. If it takes 5 hrs to do there 50k, all the better;-)

Once over there jitters, work on speed.

So dual, in damn near anything to work on thermaling, then follow / lead. Works really well...

RR

XC Training Enthusiasts,

For your consideration, here is another excellent XC training resource developed by Eric Carden, incorporating self-study and glider flight simulation (Condor).

https://sites.google.com/site/thermalxc/Home.

On Wednesday, October 4, 2017 at 6:24:18 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Years ago, Erik Mann and some other folks ran a series of spring XC days at PGC (Philadelphia Glider Council) that included a morning lecture from experienced pilots (Roy McMaster was one). They had lined up a bunch of experienced pilots to play lead/follow with about a dozen "students" of varying skill levels. IIRC, the higher the skill level of the students, the higher the skill level of the leader. A couple of guys got to follow Doug Jacobs around for a while! Also, IIRC, the ideal students/leader ratio declined with experience, as did the distance from the gliderport and other factors. The gliders were not all the same performance but weren't so far apart that it made flying together impossible.

Two things I recall:
1. Pulling dive brakes more than once to lead one of my charges around a thermal at lower altitude. The gap between leader and followers seemed to expand steadily based on everything from differences between sailplanes, to climbing not as well, to failing to leave the thermal immediately, to flying a little slower to just be safe, and to stopping for a turn or two in a weak thermal for the same reason. And, yes, thermaling skills tended to deteriorate as altitude declined and anxiety mounted. I suspect using simulators would have helped a lot! But there's just no substitute for getting low out of gliding range from an airport.

2. Less experienced students were very nervous about final glides, even with high arrival altitudes, if they couldn't see the home airport (not unusual back East). This was just on the leading edge of the GPS era so that may have changed. But sometimes we forget what a leap of faith is required to turn your back on the home airport, to pass up a weak thermal even when you've got altitude and good prospects ahead, to cruise faster than best glide, and to commit to a final glide based strictly on some calculations and the promise that the finish is out of site but reachable.

On at least one occasion, the organizers had managed to suggest enough alternate air-to-air frequencies that we could keep in touch with our students without annoying the rest of the fleet.

I thoroughly enjoyed myself and the feedback we got was almost universally high. I don't recall any outlandings but we got lucky on the wx. We did it early enough in the season that no one had to forgo a record day. Participation in local contests and in the Governor's Cup series that summer rose as a result.

Yes, it's an investment. But it's fun for everyone and doesn't cost much, if anything. The organizational burden is the biggest one: arranging for a venue--including a classroom as well as gliderport (and whatever machinations are needed to launch non-club members), making sure there are enough towplanes to get everyone launched fairly quickly even while a training operating is going on, getting the word out and then getting firm commitments, etc. Erik has great enthusiasm as well as a high tolerance for frustration for these kinds of organized efforts but not everyone does.

Chip Bearden

I was looking for my notes on these events just the other day. Chip and several other posters upstream cover a lot of it. A few other thoughts:

- Doing this as a group event with organized briefings and discussion really helped to get people in the right frame of mind.
- The goals need to be aligned with the experience level of the students. For some folks, a tiny triangle was a HUGE achievement. For others, breaking 40 miles an hour over 100K was the goal.
- Don't expect miracles. From memory, I believe we brought 25 students through the program over a couple of years. Fewer than half of them "stuck" in any meaningful way in the long term.

Just a little illustration of what to expect. My student was an experienced B-24 pilot, very active CFI-G, and owner of an ASW-19. The man could aviate! Every time we met, he talked about how "this year" was the year he would really get into XC. In his early 70s, I suspect he knew there wasn't a lot of time left to take up serious XC.

The day he and I flew was a really good one. 6,000 foot bases with honest cu, 5kt lift, and light NW breezes. He thermalled well, knew exactly where he was at all times, and really followed great radio discipline. We hopped a few clouds upwind about 15 miles then decided to head back for a start.. From 6,000 feet on a solid cloudstreet I headed off at 90kts. After a minute or two I asked where he was. "I stopped to climb". I backtracked and found him 200 feet higher circling in 1kt. I convinced him to follow me, and off I went.

Couple miles later and an S-turn or two showed no sigh of him. I asked again. His response "I stopped to climb." This scene played out several more times until we finally decided to just have fun flying within easy final glide of the home drome.

In the debrief, I asked him why he felt the need to climb when we had a 5:1 glide home with a tailwind? Intellectually, he knew the answer, but he just couldn't break old habits and simply wasn't comfortable out of glide range of the home airport. It wasn't going to change, and he still had a lot of fun continuing to hone his thermalling skills and teaching for his club.