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Best Path to Race



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 23rd 17, 03:37 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Michael Opitz
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Posts: 318
Default Best Path to Race

At 00:56 23 November 2017, Retting wrote:
Flaps are also a big safety benefit in outlandings? Std Class ships

come
in comparatively much hotter?

Really? 44 contests flying a Discus and not a scratch. 5 retrieves

with
tail booms broken....all flap ships.
So, I say lousy pilots fly flap ships. Or, flap ship pilots make poor
decisions.
Find the ship you want to race. It will take hours and hours to

become
tuned with her so you might as well love the ride.

R


Oh yes, and Henry neglected to mention that he's got a nice race
ready D-2b for sale on W&W.... It might well be worth a look for
you.

Both the original Discus-b and the Discus-2b have very nice handling
characteristics. (the "a" models also, but the cockpits are for shorter
pilots) I don't know how tall you are, but I am 6'2" and 205 Lbs. My
D-2b is the first glider that I have owned where I can get in with a
normal chute, without removing the seat back, lay my legs flat on
the floor, and pull the rudder pedals back two notches from full
extension. All of that, and my head is still far enough forward so
that I can turn around and see the tips of the horizontal tail if
needed. In my original Discus-b, I had to remove the seat back,
and then my head was so far back that rearward visibility was very
limited past the 3-9 O'clock line. This is important if you want to fly
in contests and thus will be doing some gaggle flying. My D-2b is
the first glider that I have had where I have not been at a
competitive disadvantage from a cockpit comfort point of view.
(The V-2b has the same cockpit dimensions as well...)
This is also important when racing, because if you aren't
comfortable, you aren't devoting your full attention to the task at
hand.

So, as Henry says, "You might as well love the ride". Whatever you
buy, try to make sure you love the handling, and will be comfortable
in the cockpit for long hours at a stretch.

RO

  #12  
Old November 23rd 17, 04:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jeff Morgan
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Posts: 20
Default Best Path to Race

On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 7:22:02 AM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
If you have the money there is no reason not to get a modern glider. They are easier to fly, safer, and also happen to perform better. If you don't think you have the money, look a little deeper in to your wallet. Two years from now you will suddenly discover that you do! Gliders are actually not that expensive. Yes, the capital cost is high, but they keep their value well, and they require little maintenance. You have money tied up in a glider, not money spent on a glider. Flaps on a modern glider like ASW27 are a non issue -- simply better in every way, and not a big complexity for a good new pilot (especially with airline background) to deal with. The sweet spot right now is buying a great 15 meter racer like a 27 or V2 from pilots who discover then absolutely need to spend $50k on 3 more meters of wing.

Go to contests sooner rather than later. My greatest regret is not thinking I was ready for too many years. Once you are reasonably competent at thermaling, have done 5 cross country flights of 100 miles or so, off to a sports class regionals. They are really xc training camps, not contests. You learn so much more so quickly at a regional contest than heading out alone. Forget the race, think of it as a camp. Every day, you will get a detailed weather briefing, an experienced pilot will set the best task for the day and the weather, experienced pilots will happily offer all sorts of advice on how to do the task, tows are provided, even wing runners are provided, there is a retrieve desk to help out should you need it, towplanes will come get you from nearby airports, and then experienced pilots will help debrief. Most of all, you will learn that it is possible and practical to go out cross country on days that you would not normally get out of bed, and to complete the task too. And then there will be beer. What more could one want?

John Cochrane BB


Thanks to all of you for the great advice! One can read all of the Dick Johnson reports, but hearing from owners is even better.

I may have been a bit too conservative on when I should get involved in contests. A pleasant surprise certainly.

It seems my initial plan of going straight to a competitive ship and bypassing a less competitive "xc-trainer" ship is vindicated.

The Standard vs. Flapped decision is a bit harder. All of the Sages say 15 meter (faster/safer), I'm leaning Standard (simplicity). But it's not like I have Standard tattooed on my shoulder, or something I am going to lose sleep over. I'll reconsider how much "simpler" it really is. Perhaps it's like driving a manual transmission where you don't even think about it after the first day of ownership. And of course, I deal with flaps every day at work, it's not Rocket Science.

And as John Cochrane said, aside from the ongoing costs it's closer to parking money than spending it. So I will be open to each option, ultimately what's going to make that decision is the right ship at the right price.

Happy Thanksgiving!
  #13  
Old November 23rd 17, 04:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default Best Path to Race

All of my out landings have been to airports or plowed fields so never
any damage.Â* An old flying buddy once told me, "Land in dirt, you won't
get hurt."Â* I've always followed that advice unless there's an airport
nearby.

I agree that it's the pilot, not the ship that determines the safety of
the landing.

On 11/22/2017 7:26 PM, BobW wrote:
Flaps are also a big safety benefit in outlandings?Â* Std Class ships
come
in comparatively much hotter?

Really? 44 contests flying a Discus and not a scratch. 5 retrieves with
tail booms broken....all flap ships. So, I say lousy pilots fly flap
ships.
Or, flap ship pilots make poor decisions. Find the ship you want to
race.
It will take hours and hours to become tuned with her so you might as
well
love the ride.


Heh. We're definitely approaching northern hemisphere winter.

My own "outlandings gone bad" observational experience is roughly
50%...and very few of the pilots involved approached their field
selection choices in as cowardly as fashion as Yours Truly. That said,
"the best of my tales" involved a PIK-20B (90-degree flaps) driver
seriously breaking his bird in an OFL to a smallish field...downwind.
It was "your classic lowish-experienced-OFL sort of
high/fast/in-too-close pattern, even without the tailwind assist. I've
little doubt that almost anything beyond an on-airspeed-1-26 would've
been seriously broken trying to make a downwind approach to that
particular field.

Flaps or not, there ain't no substitute for good judgment!

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com


--
Dan, 5J
  #14  
Old November 23rd 17, 04:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default Best Path to Race

...And speaking of parking money rather than spending it, I've made
money on 4 or my last 5 ships.Â* You could just as well lose money, but
chalk that up to cheap rent for a very nice ride.Â* Still a nice investment!

If you can, fly both flapped and standard ships before deciding. Notice
what happens when the flaps are set to the full negative setting...

On 11/23/2017 8:12 AM, Jeff Morgan wrote:
On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 7:22:02 AM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
If you have the money there is no reason not to get a modern glider. They are easier to fly, safer, and also happen to perform better. If you don't think you have the money, look a little deeper in to your wallet. Two years from now you will suddenly discover that you do! Gliders are actually not that expensive. Yes, the capital cost is high, but they keep their value well, and they require little maintenance. You have money tied up in a glider, not money spent on a glider. Flaps on a modern glider like ASW27 are a non issue -- simply better in every way, and not a big complexity for a good new pilot (especially with airline background) to deal with. The sweet spot right now is buying a great 15 meter racer like a 27 or V2 from pilots who discover then absolutely need to spend $50k on 3 more meters of wing.

Go to contests sooner rather than later. My greatest regret is not thinking I was ready for too many years. Once you are reasonably competent at thermaling, have done 5 cross country flights of 100 miles or so, off to a sports class regionals. They are really xc training camps, not contests. You learn so much more so quickly at a regional contest than heading out alone. Forget the race, think of it as a camp. Every day, you will get a detailed weather briefing, an experienced pilot will set the best task for the day and the weather, experienced pilots will happily offer all sorts of advice on how to do the task, tows are provided, even wing runners are provided, there is a retrieve desk to help out should you need it, towplanes will come get you from nearby airports, and then experienced pilots will help debrief. Most of all, you will learn that it is possible and practical to go out cross country on days that you would not normally get out of bed, and to complete the task too. And then there will be beer. What more could one want?

John Cochrane BB

Thanks to all of you for the great advice! One can read all of the Dick Johnson reports, but hearing from owners is even better.

I may have been a bit too conservative on when I should get involved in contests. A pleasant surprise certainly.

It seems my initial plan of going straight to a competitive ship and bypassing a less competitive "xc-trainer" ship is vindicated.

The Standard vs. Flapped decision is a bit harder. All of the Sages say 15 meter (faster/safer), I'm leaning Standard (simplicity). But it's not like I have Standard tattooed on my shoulder, or something I am going to lose sleep over. I'll reconsider how much "simpler" it really is. Perhaps it's like driving a manual transmission where you don't even think about it after the first day of ownership. And of course, I deal with flaps every day at work, it's not Rocket Science.

And as John Cochrane said, aside from the ongoing costs it's closer to parking money than spending it. So I will be open to each option, ultimately what's going to make that decision is the right ship at the right price.

Happy Thanksgiving!


--
Dan, 5J

  #15  
Old November 23rd 17, 04:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Posts: 1,463
Default Best Path to Race

While my glider owing/selling experience is not current, yes buying a glider is like parking money, but you do lose the time value of time. All the gliders I have sold were sold for the same price I purchased said glider for five or so years earlier.

On Thursday, November 23, 2017 at 7:44:22 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
...And speaking of parking money rather than spending it, I've made
money on 4 or my last 5 ships.Â* You could just as well lose money, but
chalk that up to cheap rent for a very nice ride.Â* Still a nice investment!

If you can, fly both flapped and standard ships before deciding. Notice
what happens when the flaps are set to the full negative setting...

On 11/23/2017 8:12 AM, Jeff Morgan wrote:
On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 7:22:02 AM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
If you have the money there is no reason not to get a modern glider. They are easier to fly, safer, and also happen to perform better. If you don't think you have the money, look a little deeper in to your wallet. Two years from now you will suddenly discover that you do! Gliders are actually not that expensive. Yes, the capital cost is high, but they keep their value well, and they require little maintenance. You have money tied up in a glider, not money spent on a glider. Flaps on a modern glider like ASW27 are a non issue -- simply better in every way, and not a big complexity for a good new pilot (especially with airline background) to deal with. The sweet spot right now is buying a great 15 meter racer like a 27 or V2 from pilots who discover then absolutely need to spend $50k on 3 more meters of wing.

Go to contests sooner rather than later. My greatest regret is not thinking I was ready for too many years. Once you are reasonably competent at thermaling, have done 5 cross country flights of 100 miles or so, off to a sports class regionals. They are really xc training camps, not contests. You learn so much more so quickly at a regional contest than heading out alone. Forget the race, think of it as a camp. Every day, you will get a detailed weather briefing, an experienced pilot will set the best task for the day and the weather, experienced pilots will happily offer all sorts of advice on how to do the task, tows are provided, even wing runners are provided, there is a retrieve desk to help out should you need it, towplanes will come get you from nearby airports, and then experienced pilots will help debrief. Most of all, you will learn that it is possible and practical to go out cross country on days that you would not normally get out of bed, and to complete the task too. And then there will be beer. What more could one want?

John Cochrane BB

Thanks to all of you for the great advice! One can read all of the Dick Johnson reports, but hearing from owners is even better.

I may have been a bit too conservative on when I should get involved in contests. A pleasant surprise certainly.

It seems my initial plan of going straight to a competitive ship and bypassing a less competitive "xc-trainer" ship is vindicated.

The Standard vs. Flapped decision is a bit harder. All of the Sages say 15 meter (faster/safer), I'm leaning Standard (simplicity). But it's not like I have Standard tattooed on my shoulder, or something I am going to lose sleep over. I'll reconsider how much "simpler" it really is. Perhaps it's like driving a manual transmission where you don't even think about it after the first day of ownership. And of course, I deal with flaps every day at work, it's not Rocket Science.

And as John Cochrane said, aside from the ongoing costs it's closer to parking money than spending it. So I will be open to each option, ultimately what's going to make that decision is the right ship at the right price.

Happy Thanksgiving!


--
Dan, 5J


  #16  
Old November 23rd 17, 05:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Posts: 961
Default Best Path to Race

On Thursday, November 23, 2017 at 6:12:09 PM UTC+3, Jeff Morgan wrote:
The Standard vs. Flapped decision is a bit harder. All of the Sages say 15 meter (faster/safer), I'm leaning Standard (simplicity). But it's not like I have Standard tattooed on my shoulder, or something I am going to lose sleep over. I'll reconsider how much "simpler" it really is. Perhaps it's like driving a manual transmission where you don't even think about it after the first day of ownership.


Exactly. Gliders vary so look in your handbook, but I'd say it's generally something like this:

L: Landing. Short final, definitely got the field made
+2: geez this core is narrow! Rack it in there!
+1: normal thermalling and aerotow
0: cruising, from min sink up to 15 or 20 knots above best L/D, noodling around looking for lift
-1: normal fast inter-thermal cruise
-2: flat out between 100ish knots and Vne

It's pretty easy to use it exactly like a gear change, depending on what flight mode you're in. Generally you lead with the flap, adjusting it for the speed you want to go, not the speed you are going now.
  #17  
Old November 23rd 17, 07:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
waremark
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Posts: 377
Default Best Path to Race

"The Standard vs. Flapped decision is a bit harder. All of the Sages say 15 meter (faster/safer), I'm leaning Standard (simplicity). But it's not like I have Standard tattooed on my shoulder, or something I am going to lose sleep over. I'll reconsider how much "simpler" it really is. Perhaps it's like driving a manual transmission where you don't even think about it after the first day of ownership. And of course, I deal with flaps every day at work, it's not Rocket Science."

Do you generally fly a glider in trim? If so, flying a flapped machine, most of the time you just adjust the flaps when you change your flight condition instead of adjusting the trim. There are different views on whether to change speed first and flaps after or vice versa, so probably it doesn't make much difference. Personally, I slow with the elevator, then lower flaps, but lead with the flaps to speed up.

The only high workload time can be on take-off. Many gliders give you aileron control earlier if you start the ground run in negative flap, and then you want to change to positive flap once you have aileron control but before the flap change will bounce you into the air. Since you want to have your hand on the rope/cable release through most of the launch, this means moving your hand to the flap leaver and back again. You certainly want to be able to do it without looking down for long. However, again in most gliders this is not essential.

If you were to invest in a fancy flight computer like an LX9000, it is able to tell you in an easily intuitive way whether you are in the right flap setting for what you are doing, and if not what setting you should be in (when I flew a friend's ASH31 I asked about flap speed ranges, and he said just look at the LX - he was right, it was easy).

I recommend an ASW 27 - look what Bruno does with his, it is comfortable, safe cockpit, said to be delightful to fly, and well made.

On Wednesday, 22 November 2017 04:37:43 UTC, Jeff Morgan wrote:
After a 12 year soaring hiatus to advance my airline career, I am back in.. I rejoined my old club and got a flight review, and am happy to report the passion is still there.

However, I am at a crossroads, much like before. Our club is all metal ships. Between that and the club time limit per flight, cross country is out of the question. To progress I need to get my own ship sometime between now and next season.

The question is the best path. I know I want to fly XC. I have never had more fun in flying than my few XC flights (believe it or not, I find glider XC more fun than jets). Being very competitive, I *think* I want to race. But having never done it ... can't be sure until I actually do a race.

Being light on the glider experience (120 hours, 15 glass) I was thinking at least one year of cross country flying, probably two, before I have any business entering a contest.

So what glider to get? I find myself wanting Standard Class more than 15 meter just for simplicity and enjoyment. But flapped ships are not completely out. To some extent, I have to take what the used market has to offer over the next six months.

The Current Thinking is to go all-in and just buy a ship that is currently at the top of the class (which today means DIscus, LS-8, Ventus, or ASW27). That way I do all of my learning in the ship I would eventually (hopefully) race in 2019 or 2020. And if racing does not fulfill me, I still have a great ship.

But some doubts about the wisdom of that approach have crept in. Perhaps I should be looking at a ship less competitive but still solid for XC that would be traded later?

Something with 17 meter tips perhaps. The older Ventus gliders jumped to mind first, but they are long in the tooth and in the game of musical gelcoat chairs, the music would stop and I would be the guy left without a chair..

The 304CZ then came to mind. Being generally newer, gelcoat and trailer would likely be great, and still great when I sell. I could even do a few races with 15 meter tips "just to see". The downside, I would have to buy and get in tune with a new ship before serious racing.

Or maybe I am just over-analyzing this thing?


  #18  
Old November 23rd 17, 08:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 463
Default Best Path to Race



If you can, fly both flapped and standard ships before deciding. Notice
what happens when the flaps are set to the full negative setting...

Think positive, flap negative (Sounds better in German: Denk positif, wölb negatif)
  #19  
Old November 24th 17, 04:21 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 13
Default Best Path to Race

So buy a flapped ship and lock the flaps in neutral (not really, just think of the as fixed). Fly thermals 5 knots faster, cruise with less efficiency, land with slightly less control,

Then just once sneak the flaps down in a thermal and notice how nice it is. Put them negative above 75 knots, gee it goes better. All the way down landing, much better control. After a few repetitions you wonder why you even worried about it

Bruce Patton
Old HP-18 driver
  #20  
Old November 24th 17, 06:12 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Posts: 961
Default Best Path to Race

On Friday, November 24, 2017 at 6:21:28 AM UTC+3, wrote:
So buy a flapped ship and lock the flaps in neutral (not really, just think of the as fixed). Fly thermals 5 knots faster, cruise with less efficiency, land with slightly less control,


That seems like a very bad idea. If it's got flaps then the designer assumes you'll use them. A flapped glider in 0 does not in general have the same airfoil as a non-flapped glider -- the airfoil may be thinner and the max CL and AoA may be less.

If you're going to leave the flap lever locked (which I emphasise is not a good idea) then I'd suggest locking it in +1. Then the glider will work as designed for takeoff and thermalling. You'll lose performance in cruise of course, but that happens as soon as you ignore the minus settings anyway. Check the manual to see if this will reduce Vne or load factors (it probably won't).

Back when my club had a Janus and I was giving trial flights in it, I'd set it in +1 (6 degrees) before handing it over to the student. It pretty much turned the Janus into a Grob :-) Much easier for them.

But buying a flapped glider and then not using the flaps is worse in every way that just buying a non-flapped glider. Don't do it.
 




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