Ice meteors, climate, sceptics

Grant wrote:
Brian Sandle wrote:

The physics involved in a massive block forming in a clear sky through
natural causes is so mind-boggling as to be virtually inconceivable.
Probably ice meteor incidence is correlated with aircraft traffic.


A normal tiny meteor can act as a nucleus for ice to form.


You could calculate the time it takes to grow a 10kg chunk of ice under
the most extreme plausible conditions of atmospheric supersaturation.
See ch. 4 of Wallace and Hobbs.

But it would be a pointless exercise, because the answer would be
measured in weeks or months, and you could never hope to keep your chunk
of ice suspended in the atmosphere longer than a few minutes, once you
got past a few grams.

Unless there is some sort of vortex.

And you wouldn't get a clear chunk of ice anyway by this mechanism;
you'd get a big porous mass of ice crystals.

Like hoar frost? It's incredibly patterened, but quite solid, not porous, I
think.

Where are the data about upper atmosphere temperature and global warming?

Here's a factoid that might help put things into perspective: typical
water vapor concentrations in the upper atmosphere are below 4 parts per
million, relative to air. And air at, say, 50 km altitude has a density
on the order of 1 gram per cubic meter. So to grow a 10 kg chunk of ice
at that altitude would require you to figure out a way to quickly
condense onto one object *all* of the water vapor in 2.5 cubic
*kilometers* of ambient air.

Any reason for 50 km? Most of the air where vortices could do anything is in
the troposphere.

Bottom line: I tend to think the stories about chunks of ice out of the
clear sky, while possibly true in some sense, have nothing to do with
meteorology in any form, let alone global warming.

Could someone be deliberately tossing junks of ice out of passing
aircraft?

I have heard of frogs raining down. Seemed genuine.


Recall the crop circle "mystery" -- it eventually was
acknowledged to be a hoax -- by the hoaxers themselves - after countless
"experts" had been quoted as saying, "it can't be a hoax."

Ha ha, yes. It became quite a hobby of the `sceptics' or pranksters to show
how it could be done. How did they hoax the real crop circles in which the
bent over wheat is said to keep growing - it is not trampled? Enlightenment
please.


(Though I think this example, from the shape of the block has been formed in
some sort of mold. Either that or cleaved off somehow.)

Brian Sandle wrote:


Unless there is some sort of vortex.



not sure how a vortex would affect my arguments


And you wouldn't get a clear chunk of ice anyway by this mechanism;
you'd get a big porous mass of ice crystals.


Like hoar frost? It's incredibly patterened, but quite solid, not porous, I
think.


"Feathery" is the word that came to mind the last time I examined thick
hoarfrost. Porous in the sense that you have needle-like or dendritic
crystals growing into a feathery mass, as opposed to a uniform glaze of
ice. Note by the way that hoar froast, which grows by sublimation from
the vapor phase, is different than rime ice, which is less porous. The
latter involves the accretion of supercooled droplets and requires a
visible cloud. It's the same process involved in hail and graupel
formation, whereas hoar frost is more analogous the formation of snow.

Where are the data about upper atmosphere temperature and global warming?


Here's a factoid that might help put things into perspective: typical
water vapor concentrations in the upper atmosphere are below 4 parts per
million, relative to air. And air at, say, 50 km altitude has a density
on the order of 1 gram per cubic meter. So to grow a 10 kg chunk of ice
at that altitude would require you to figure out a way to quickly
condense onto one object *all* of the water vapor in 2.5 cubic
*kilometers* of ambient air.


Any reason for 50 km? Most of the air where vortices could do anything is in
the troposphere.

If tropospheric vortices are involved in producing large chunks of ice,
then they're also producing clouds. I thought the issue at hand was one
of ice chunks falling out of the clear blue sky, and more specifically
out of the stratosphere. But maybe I haven't been reading closely enough.


Bottom line: I tend to think the stories about chunks of ice out of the
clear sky, while possibly true in some sense, have nothing to do with
meteorology in any form, let alone global warming.


Could someone be deliberately tossing junks of ice out of passing
aircraft?


I have heard of frogs raining down. Seemed genuine.


I think the prevailing view on that is that the frogs were probably
swept up into the air by a tornado or waterspout. Although I have to
admit that most such accounts have aspects that are hard to explain, IF
you take them at face value.


Recall the crop circle "mystery" -- it eventually was

acknowledged to be a hoax -- by the hoaxers themselves - after countless
"experts" had been quoted as saying, "it can't be a hoax."


Ha ha, yes. It became quite a hobby of the `sceptics' or pranksters to show
how it could be done. How did they hoax the real crop circles in which the
bent over wheat is said to keep growing - it is not trampled? Enlightenment
please.

That's precisely one of the arguments the "experts" used. And then the
hoaxers showed that it's really not that hard to bend the stems without
breaking them.

Grant wrote:
Brian Sandle wrote:


Unless there is some sort of vortex.



not sure how a vortex would affect my arguments


And you wouldn't get a clear chunk of ice anyway by this mechanism;
you'd get a big porous mass of ice crystals.


Like hoar frost? It's incredibly patterened, but quite solid, not porous, I
think.


"Feathery" is the word that came to mind the last time I examined thick
hoarfrost.

Though `feathery' gives the impression that it would be easy to break. But
it is soldily attached to whatever it grows on.

Porous in the sense that you have needle-like or dendritic
crystals growing into a feathery mass, as opposed to a uniform glaze of
ice.

Though not crushable as I have seen it, there were not filaments
projecting into the air.

Note by the way that hoar froast, which grows by sublimation from
the vapor phase, is different than rime ice, which is less porous. The
latter involves the accretion of supercooled droplets and requires a
visible cloud. It's the same process involved in hail and graupel
formation, whereas hoar frost is more analogous the formation of snow.

What I saw was a tremendous pattern on a car roof top where there had been
very slight air movement.

Where are the data about upper atmosphere temperature and global warming?


Here's a factoid that might help put things into perspective: typical
water vapor concentrations in the upper atmosphere are below 4 parts per
million, relative to air. And air at, say, 50 km altitude has a density
on the order of 1 gram per cubic meter. So to grow a 10 kg chunk of ice
at that altitude would require you to figure out a way to quickly
condense onto one object *all* of the water vapor in 2.5 cubic
*kilometers* of ambient air.


Any reason for 50 km? Most of the air where vortices could do anything is in
the troposphere.

If tropospheric vortices are involved in producing large chunks of ice,
then they're also producing clouds. I thought the issue at hand was one
of ice chunks falling out of the clear blue sky, and more specifically
out of the stratosphere. But maybe I haven't been reading closely enough.

I don't think the original article mentioned stratoshpere, though I guess
that is the part of the atmosphere which would be cooling under global
warming? Your argument about the amount of water vapour there is quite
convincing. However what about clouds that form at 50km over the polar
regions?


Bottom line: I tend to think the stories about chunks of ice out of the
clear sky, while possibly true in some sense, have nothing to do with
meteorology in any form, let alone global warming.


Could someone be deliberately tossing junks of ice out of passing
aircraft?


I have heard of frogs raining down. Seemed genuine.


I think the prevailing view on that is that the frogs were probably
swept up into the air by a tornado or waterspout.

Yes. How far could they be thrown?

Although I have to
admit that most such accounts have aspects that are hard to explain, IF
you take them at face value.


Recall the crop circle "mystery" -- it eventually was

acknowledged to be a hoax -- by the hoaxers themselves - after countless
"experts" had been quoted as saying, "it can't be a hoax."


Ha ha, yes. It became quite a hobby of the `sceptics' or pranksters to show
how it could be done. How did they hoax the real crop circles in which the
bent over wheat is said to keep growing - it is not trampled? Enlightenment
please.

That's precisely one of the arguments the "experts" used. And then the
hoaxers showed that it's really not that hard to bend the stems without
breaking them.

Do you a ref? It seems the bend looks more like the sort in a plant which
has been grown in a pot then turned on its side. Though I cannot verify
that except pass the ref, which also gives they are produced very rapidly,
and the confusion engendered by "sceptics"' film arrangements.


Linkname: Discovery Channel Crop Circles
URL: http://www.oregonuforeview.com/discchancrop.html
Last Mod: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 02:22:04 GMT
size: 122 lines

Brian Sandle wrote:

Recall the crop circle "mystery" -- it eventually was
acknowledged to be a hoax -- by the hoaxers themselves - after
countless "experts" had been quoted as saying, "it can't be a hoax."

Ha ha, yes. It became quite a hobby of the `sceptics' or pranksters
to show how it could be done. How did they hoax the real crop circles
in which the bent over wheat is said to keep growing - it is not
trampled? Enlightenment please.

The same way the %#&$ lawn keeps growing no matter how many "mow rows"
you apply to it? =)

The crop circle crowd seem to be awfully good at looking at something
not all that overly impressive and instantly deciding it was humanly
impossible. Others might call this "wishful thinking" or "delusion" -
kinda like the "Rods" scam from a few years back.

"Bob Harrington" wrote in message news:yW%Pb.103902$5V2.398094@attbi_s53...
Brian Sandle wrote:
Recall the crop circle "mystery" -- it eventually was
acknowledged to be a hoax -- by the hoaxers themselves - after
countless "experts" had been quoted as saying, "it can't be a hoax."

Ha ha, yes. It became quite a hobby of the `sceptics' or pranksters
to show how it could be done. How did they hoax the real crop circles
in which the bent over wheat is said to keep growing - it is not
trampled? Enlightenment please.

The same way the %#&$ lawn keeps growing no matter how many "mow rows"
you apply to it? =)

The crop circle crowd seem to be awfully good at looking at something
not all that overly impressive and instantly deciding it was humanly
impossible. Others might call this "wishful thinking" or "delusion" -
kinda like the "Rods" scam from a few years back.

Sorry to drop in out of lurking, but I always found it amusing to
watch ET cropcircle proponents squirm when I pointed out at
sci.skeptic that;

During the foot and mouth disease outbreak in the UK in 2001 the
government closed all countryside footpaths, effectively blocking any
but the farmer from crop fields.

During the ban no crop circles were recorded in the English
countryside.

The first crop circle in England to be recorded was the day after the
walking ban was lifted in that county.

Very community minded is our ET.

--
Eric Hocking
www.twofromoz.freeserve.co.uk
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke

Eric Hocking wrote:
"Bob Harrington" wrote in message news:yW%Pb.103902$5V2.398094@attbi_s53...
Brian Sandle wrote:
Recall the crop circle "mystery" -- it eventually was
acknowledged to be a hoax -- by the hoaxers themselves - after
countless "experts" had been quoted as saying, "it can't be a hoax."

Ha ha, yes. It became quite a hobby of the `sceptics' or pranksters
to show how it could be done. How did they hoax the real crop circles
in which the bent over wheat is said to keep growing - it is not
trampled? Enlightenment please.

The same way the %#&$ lawn keeps growing no matter how many "mow rows"
you apply to it? =)

The crop circle crowd seem to be awfully good at looking at something
not all that overly impressive and instantly deciding it was humanly
impossible. Others might call this "wishful thinking" or "delusion" -
kinda like the "Rods" scam from a few years back.

Sorry to drop in out of lurking, but I always found it amusing to
watch ET cropcircle proponents squirm when I pointed out at
sci.skeptic that;

During the foot and mouth disease outbreak in the UK in 2001 the
government closed all countryside footpaths, effectively blocking any
but the farmer from crop fields.

During the ban no crop circles were recorded in the English
countryside.

The first crop circle in England to be recorded was the day after the
walking ban was lifted in that county.

Very community minded is our ET.

Any decent scientist knows
(a) correlation is not causation
(b) to check the data.


(a) About 90% of the walkways were open in September 1991 in Britain.

Linkname: CropCircleInvestigated
URL: http://www.geocities.com/hbccufo/Cro...estigated.html

Crop Circles Return Three Years Later
by Gordon Hoekstra
Citizen Staff, September, 2001
They'rrrrre baaaack !
Crop Circles have been discovered again in Vanderhoof, almost three years
to the day they were firs found in a ripe oat field just off the airport
runway.
[...] The researcher said tests performed on the oat samples
in a U.S. lab later confirmed the Crop Circles were genuine: that is to
say there were cellular changes in the oats not found in known hoaxes.


So that they occurred world over again at the end of foot and mouth in
Britain may or may not be just a coincidence.


(b) Though I now confound myself somewhat by giving this:


Linkname: Weird Wiltshire - Crop Circles - News Archive
URL:
http://www.thisispewsey.co.uk/wiltsh...rd/231001.html


First published on October 23
THE foot and mouth epidemic may have hampered the search for crop circles
in Wiltshire's corn fields but the people who spend time looking for them
still managed to record some incredible formations.
[...]
In spite of the foot and mouth restrictions which meant that the croppies
had to keep away from fields and could not fly overland, about 40
formations were officially recorded in Wiltshire.



Not sure how they did it.

Brian Sandle wrote in message ...
Eric Hocking wrote:
snip

Sorry to drop in out of lurking, but I always found it amusing to
watch ET cropcircle proponents squirm when I pointed out at
sci.skeptic that;

During the foot and mouth disease outbreak in the UK in 2001 the
government closed all countryside footpaths, effectively blocking any
but the farmer from crop fields.

During the ban no crop circles were recorded in the English
countryside.

The first crop circle in England to be recorded was the day after the
walking ban was lifted in that county.

Very community minded is our ET.

Any decent scientist knows
(a) correlation is not causation

Fine - put forward another explanation for the correlation between
lifting footpath bans and the late 2001 appearance of circles in
British crops.

(b) to check the data.

Ah, let's just do that shall we?

(a) About 90% of the walkways were open in September 1991 in Britain.

Since I specifically stated 2001, what has this to do with my post?
Feb 27 2001 announcement on footpath closures.
http://www.defra.gov.uk/news/newsrel/2001/010227d.htm

Linkname: CropCircleInvestigated
URL: http://www.geocities.com/hbccufo/Cro...estigated.html

snip

So that they occurred world over again at the end of foot and mouth in
Britain may or may not be just a coincidence.

I did not say worldwide - I quite specifically said "English" circles.
The fact remains that the first cropcircles to appear in BRITAIN, were
found and probably created (as per the cropcircle database site) in
late/end of May. Just as the FMD footpath restrictions were being
eased.

So, what caused the cessation of circlemaking in Britain that year?
Surely footpath closures wouldn't have had any effect on airborne ET?
The only restriction was on *human* access on the ground to crop
fields. I'm sure it's purely coincidental that the lifting of those
restrictions correlate with the first appearance of new circles in
May.

(b) Though I now confound myself somewhat by giving this:

Linkname: Weird Wiltshire - Crop Circles - News Archive
URL:
http://www.thisispewsey.co.uk/wiltsh...rd/231001.html


First published on October 23
THE foot and mouth epidemic may have hampered the search for crop circles
in Wiltshire's corn fields but the people who spend time looking for them
still managed to record some incredible formations.

All created in May after the FMD restrictions were eased. This as per
the cropcircle database site:
http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=x&y=2001&c=UK&l=&k=&m=April
http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=x&y=2001&c=UK&l=&k=&m=May

[...]
In spite of the foot and mouth restrictions which meant that the croppies
had to keep away from fields and could not fly overland,

The above statement seems to imply that circles *might* have been
created prior to May 2001, but the croppies were unable to find them
merely due to to the fact that they were not allowed to do air
searches. That's patently untrue as per the Hansard record of May 9
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200001/cmhansrd/vo010509/text/10509w19.htm
The aviation bans were that you could not fly *below* 500ft over
infected land or *below* 1000ft over the livestock cremation sites.
There was nothing to stop croppies flying over at 1500ft plus scouring
for circles.

So to claim that there *might* have been circles created before May is
moot, since they can't prove it happened and I can't prove it didn't.

about 40
formations were officially recorded in Wiltshire.

The NUMBER of circles is irrelevant, it is WHEN they appeared. Here's
part of my post from 2001, one of the council links is dead and see
this link for May 2001
http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=x&y=2001&c=UK&l=&k=&m=May

"This is the Hampshire County Council notice regarding F&M
http://www.hants.gov.uk/hcc/emergency/footmouth.html
Guess when it's dated? You got it 11 May. It links to an emergency
plan for
Hants: http://www.hants.gov.uk/hcc/emergency/scudamore.html
dated March.

And of course, the first one in England turned up in? Hampshire - on
May
16. http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=uk01ab

When Wiltshire opened up
http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/download...411_order.html

Lo and Behold! A crop circle turns up in Wiltshire.
http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=uk01aq "


Not sure how they did it.

Waited in the pub until walking restrictions were lifted?

--
Eric Hocking
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" - P.J. O'Rourke.
http://www.twofromoz.freeserve.co.uk

Eric Hocking wrote:
Brian Sandle wrote in message ...
Eric Hocking wrote:
snip

Sorry to drop in out of lurking, but I always found it amusing to
watch ET cropcircle proponents squirm when I pointed out at
sci.skeptic that;

During the foot and mouth disease outbreak in the UK in 2001 the
government closed all countryside footpaths, effectively blocking any
but the farmer from crop fields.

During the ban no crop circles were recorded in the English
countryside.

The first crop circle in England to be recorded was the day after the
walking ban was lifted in that county.

Very community minded is our ET.

Any decent scientist knows
(a) correlation is not causation

Fine - put forward another explanation for the correlation between
lifting footpath bans and the late 2001 appearance of circles in
British crops.

(b) to check the data.

Ah, let's just do that shall we?

(a) About 90% of the walkways were open in September 1991 in Britain.

Since I specifically stated 2001, what has this to do with my post?

I meant 2001. It was in an offical PDF file which I cannot find again, with
the history of F&MD.

Feb 27 2001 announcement on footpath closures.
http://www.defra.gov.uk/news/newsrel/2001/010227d.htm

Linkname: CropCircleInvestigated
URL: http://www.geocities.com/hbccufo/Cro...estigated.html

snip

So that they occurred world over again at the end of foot and mouth in
Britain may or may not be just a coincidence.

I did not say worldwide - I quite specifically said "English" circles.

But I am pointing out it could be world wide.

The fact remains that the first cropcircles to appear in BRITAIN, were
found and probably created (as per the cropcircle database site) in
late/end of May. Just as the FMD footpath restrictions were being
eased.

Search your database for any country April 2001, there is only one result,
and that is an acknowledged art work.

So, what caused the cessation of circlemaking in Britain that year?
Surely footpath closures wouldn't have had any effect on airborne ET?
The only restriction was on *human* access on the ground to crop
fields. I'm sure it's purely coincidental that the lifting of those
restrictions correlate with the first appearance of new circles in
May.

They started appearing world over in May.

(b) Though I now confound myself somewhat by giving this:

Linkname: Weird Wiltshire - Crop Circles - News Archive
URL:
http://www.thisispewsey.co.uk/wiltsh...rd/231001.html


First published on October 23
THE foot and mouth epidemic may have hampered the search for crop circles
in Wiltshire's corn fields but the people who spend time looking for them
still managed to record some incredible formations.

All created in May after the FMD restrictions were eased.

That is correlation not proven causation.

This as per
the cropcircle database site:
http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=x&y=2001&c=UK&l=&k=&m=April
http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=x&y=2001&c=UK&l=&k=&m=May

[...]
In spite of the foot and mouth restrictions which meant that the croppies
had to keep away from fields and could not fly overland,

The above statement seems to imply that circles *might* have been
created prior to May 2001, but the croppies were unable to find them
merely due to to the fact that they were not allowed to do air
searches. That's patently untrue as per the Hansard record of May 9
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200001/cmhansrd/vo010509/text/10509w19.htm
The aviation bans were that you could not fly *below* 500ft over
infected land or *below* 1000ft over the livestock cremation sites.
There was nothing to stop croppies flying over at 1500ft plus scouring
for circles.

Maybe they misunderstood.

So to claim that there *might* have been circles created before May is
moot, since they can't prove it happened and I can't prove it didn't.

You like the correlation, and searching world wide back to Nov 2000 there are
very few. Just a couple on ice, one reported on ice too thin to walk on.


about 40
formations were officially recorded in Wiltshire.

The NUMBER of circles is irrelevant, it is WHEN they appeared. Here's
part of my post from 2001, one of the council links is dead and see
this link for May 2001
http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=x&y=2001&c=UK&l=&k=&m=May

"This is the Hampshire County Council notice regarding F&M
http://www.hants.gov.uk/hcc/emergency/footmouth.html
Guess when it's dated? You got it 11 May. It links to an emergency
plan for
Hants: http://www.hants.gov.uk/hcc/emergency/scudamore.html
dated March.

And of course, the first one in England turned up in? Hampshire - on
May
16. http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=uk01ab

When Wiltshire opened up
http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/download...411_order.html

Lo and Behold! A crop circle turns up in Wiltshire.
http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=uk01aq "


Not sure how they did it.

Waited in the pub until walking restrictions were lifted?

Somewhere I read it is admitted that some farmers create them as they get
grants for people to come on to their land.

Then the scientific tests should be different.

Brian Sandle wrote:
Eric Hocking wrote:


Fine - put forward another explanation for the correlation between
lifting footpath bans and the late 2001 appearance of circles in
British crops.

http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/database/index.html

then go to foot and mouth.

2001 has very similar figures for April as 2000 and 2002.

[note sci.geo.meteorology dropped from followups as requested]

"Brian Sandle" wrote in message
...
Eric Hocking wrote:
Brian Sandle wrote in message
...
Eric Hocking wrote:
snip
Sorry to drop in out of lurking, but I always found it amusing to
watch ET cropcircle proponents squirm when I pointed out at
sci.skeptic that;

During the foot and mouth disease outbreak in the UK in 2001 the
government closed all countryside footpaths, effectively blocking any
but the farmer from crop fields.

During the ban no crop circles were recorded in the English
countryside.

The first crop circle in England to be recorded was the day after the
walking ban was lifted in that county.

Very community minded is our ET.

Any decent scientist knows
(a) correlation is not causation

Fine - put forward another explanation for the correlation between
lifting footpath bans and the late 2001 appearance of circles in
British crops.

(b) to check the data.

Ah, let's just do that shall we?

(a) About 90% of the walkways were open in September 1991 in Britain.

Since I specifically stated 2001, what has this to do with my post?

I meant 2001. It was in an offical PDF file which I cannot find again,
with
the history of F&MD.

OK - so *most* of the rights of way were open by Sept 2001, this still has
nothing to do with my statement that there is a correlation between lack of
circle building while the blanket bans were in effect, does it? Further I
pointed out ath there is a correlation between the staged openings of rights
of way, county by county, and the appearance of the first circles in 2001 in
those counties corresponding with those openings.

Feb 27 2001 announcement on footpath closures.
http://www.defra.gov.uk/news/newsrel/2001/010227d.htm
Linkname: CropCircleInvestigated
URL:
http://www.geocities.com/hbccufo/Cro...estigated.html
snip
So that they occurred world over again at the end of foot and mouth in
Britain may or may not be just a coincidence.
I did not say worldwide - I quite specifically said "English" circles.

But I am pointing out it could be world wide.

A point that is quite irrelevant to the discussion though. Blanket bans on
countryside rights of way were only in place in Britain due to FMD in 2001.
What influence would these bans have on walking in a field in Canada or New
Zealand?

The fact remains that the first cropcircles to appear in BRITAIN, were
found and probably created (as per the cropcircle database site) in
late/end of May. Just as the FMD footpath restrictions were being
eased.

Search your database for any country April 2001, there is only one result,
and that is an acknowledged art work.

And this has what to do with my statement about the timing of crop circles
appearing in May in areas where blanket bans on access to rights of way were
being eased?

So, what caused the cessation of circlemaking in Britain that year?
Surely footpath closures wouldn't have had any effect on airborne ET?
The only restriction was on *human* access on the ground to crop
fields. I'm sure it's purely coincidental that the lifting of those
restrictions correlate with the first appearance of new circles in
May.

They started appearing world over in May.

As they do each year - but in Britain and specifically England (ie as per my
initial point) they did not appear in fields that had blanket bans on
access. They only started to appear after these bans were lifted. At least
address the point I am making rather than going off on irrelevant tangents.

(b) Though I now confound myself somewhat by giving this:
Linkname: Weird Wiltshire - Crop Circles - News Archive
URL:

http://www.thisispewsey.co.uk/wiltsh...rd/231001.html
First published on October 23
THE foot and mouth epidemic may have hampered the search for crop
circles
in Wiltshire's corn fields but the people who spend time looking for
them
still managed to record some incredible formations.

All created in May after the FMD restrictions were eased.

That is correlation not proven causation.

Give reasonable alternatives to my point then. What caused the different
timing and distribution of circle building in 2001? The correlation between
the appearance of circles, county by county, and the lifting of blanket bans
in those counties, while quite a coincidence, is certainly a compelling
coincidence. Have you compared the timing and distribution of circles in
2001 when the bans were in place and those in 2000 and 2002 when no
countryside movement bans were in place?

This as per
the cropcircle database site:

http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cg...K&l=&k=&m=Apri
l

http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=x&y=2001&c=UK&l=&k=&m=May

[...]
In spite of the foot and mouth restrictions which meant that the
croppies
had to keep away from fields and could not fly overland,

The above statement seems to imply that circles *might* have been
created prior to May 2001, but the croppies were unable to find them
merely due to to the fact that they were not allowed to do air
searches. That's patently untrue as per the Hansard record of May 9

http://www.parliament.the-stationery.../cmhansrd/vo01
0509/text/10509w19.htm
The aviation bans were that you could not fly *below* 500ft over
infected land or *below* 1000ft over the livestock cremation sites.
There was nothing to stop croppies flying over at 1500ft plus scouring
for circles.

Maybe they misunderstood.

Maybe, regardless, their statement that they were not able to fly over
fields to look for circles is untrue. To imply that this is a reasonable
explanation for the lateness of sightings in 2001 holds much less water than
my statement that there were not cirlces being made because the people on
the *ground* who make the circles were banned from entering fields during
that time.

So to claim that there *might* have been circles created before May is
moot, since they can't prove it happened and I can't prove it didn't.

You like the correlation, and searching world wide back to Nov 2000 there
are
very few. Just a couple on ice, one reported on ice too thin to walk on.

What's with these irrelevant tangents? I'm not talking about worldwide, I'm
talking about the timing and distribution of circle building in England 2001
and what affect the FMD countryside ban had on it.

about 40
formations were officially recorded in Wiltshire.

The NUMBER of circles is irrelevant, it is WHEN they appeared. Here's
part of my post from 2001, one of the council links is dead and see
this link for May 2001

http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=x&y=2001&c=UK&l=&k=&m=May
"This is the Hampshire County Council notice regarding F&M
http://www.hants.gov.uk/hcc/emergency/footmouth.html
Guess when it's dated? You got it 11 May. It links to an emergency
plan for
Hants: http://www.hants.gov.uk/hcc/emergency/scudamore.html
dated March.
And of course, the first one in England turned up in? Hampshire - on
May
16. http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=uk01ab
When Wiltshire opened up
http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/download...411_order.html
Lo and Behold! A crop circle turns up in Wiltshire.
http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=uk01aq "
Not sure how they did it.
Waited in the pub until walking restrictions were lifted?

Somewhere I read it is admitted that some farmers create them as they get
grants for people to come on to their land.

Then you were misled.
Farmers do not receive grants for people coming onto their land. Who would
be giving out these grants by the way?
Farmers can claim some insurance for vandalism, it does not cover the cost
of the lost crop. Anecdotally, I have heard that circle builders have
offered some cash compensation at times, but the farmers lose more in
damaged crop than they make up in these nonexistent grants.
About all they can do is ask for an "entry fee" from people who want to
access their fields to view a circle.

Then the scientific tests should be different.

What tests are these? Why should they be different? And what has that got
to do with the farmer anecdote above?

--
Eric Hocking
www.twofromoz.freeserve.co.uk
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
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