Ta-152H at low altitudes

For the experts:

As made obvious by its wings, the Ta-152H was designed as a
high-altitude interceptor. But I am interested in how the Ta-152H
handled at low-to-medium altitudes. How did the Ta-152H compare with
the Fw-190D at such alts? I suppose the ultra-long wings of the Ta
considerably reduced rollrate? Did the Ta have increased
manuverability/tighter turning circle at low alts? (Was wing-loading
increased or decreased?) What about low-speed & stall characteristics?

(N-6) wrote in message . com...
For the experts:

As made obvious by its wings, the Ta-152H was designed as a
high-altitude interceptor. But I am interested in how the Ta-152H
handled at low-to-medium altitudes. How did the Ta-152H compare with
the Fw-190D at such alts? I suppose the ultra-long wings of the Ta
considerably reduced rollrate? Did the Ta have increased
manuverability/tighter turning circle at low alts? (Was wing-loading
increased or decreased?) What about low-speed & stall characteristics?


From what I've gleaned form this newsgroup the TA152 had the following
characteristics.
1 The large laminar flow wings gave The TA152 good manoeverability
unlike the the FW190D had reduced manoeverability compared to the
radial engined FW190A becuase it has the same wings but a heavier
engine leading to high wing loading.
2 Because of their large span the roll rate was reduced compared to
the 190D which itself had less than the FW190A (regarded as one of
the fastest rollers of the war)
3 The laminar flow wing and the powerfull engine gave the TA152 a
high speed and a high rate of climb. The engine had both Water
Methanol MW50 boosting for low altitudes and GM1 Nitrous oxide
boosting for high altitudes.
4 The aircraft had a pretty good range.

TA152s were used to protect Me262 on takeoff and landing becuase the
underdeveloped Jumo 004B Jet engines had very restricted acceleration
and could easily be bounced by allied aircraft. It is said that when
TA152s were in the air no Me262s were ever lost.


The aircarft could opperate at 470mph and at altitudes of nearly
45,000 ft and had a pressursied cabin. It was designed to take on
B29s. With an Armament of 4 x 20mm and 1 x 30mm cannon it had the
power to do so.

TA152s were used to protect Me262 on takeoff and landing becuase the
underdeveloped Jumo 004B Jet engines had very restricted acceleration
and could easily be bounced by allied aircraft.

The 004 were outstanding engines and few suffered failures in the test
programme. Unfortunately, or fortunately, wartime shortages meant that the
production 004B would have subtle differences to the hand-built 004s in use
previously, with the end result that they sucked. Still, they didn't suck as
bad as history makes us believe - air starts WERE possible, and if pilots
minded their pre-flight instructions, problems were rare. Of greater
importance, the landing gear rate of failure and production defects (caused by
using slave labor) were appalling.

It is said that when
TA152s were in the air no Me262s were ever lost.

The airfield protection Staffeln used VERY few Ta 152s - instead, most were the
later marks of FW 190 D-series. Ta 152 high-altitude interceptors don't help
much when you are trying to protect low and slow "Turbos" in the traffic
pattern from Mustangs. The specialized, low alt Ta 152 might have done better,
but there were few to be had.

The aircarft could opperate at 470mph and at altitudes of nearly
45,000 ft and had a pressursied cabin. It was designed to take on
B29s.

Hard to believe. The RLM didn't field aircraft for non-existant threats; quite
the opposite, they rarely reacted in a timely fashion to actual, present
threats. The Ta 152 series was not intended specifically to counter the B-29 -
the great speed of the Tank fighter was intended to be used against Mustangs
and Mosquitos, and other fast targets that could not adequately be countered by
more conventional fighters, such as the tired old "Me". The Ta would have made
a fine bomber destroyer, but its not likely it was designed and fielded with
the B-29 in mind.

With an Armament of 4 x 20mm and 1 x 30mm cannon it had the
power to do so.

Few carried that armament, and the Ta 152 program was cancelled before the war
ended, while the Do 335 remained on the construction orders right to the end.
I believe if the B-29 ever arrived over Europe during the war, it would have
been met by the Dornier and the Me 262, which were the fighters that were still
intended to be built as of late April 45.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

nt (Gordon) wrote in message ...

TA152s were used to protect Me262 on takeoff and landing becuase the
underdeveloped Jumo 004B Jet engines had very restricted acceleration
and could easily be bounced by allied aircraft.

The 004 were outstanding engines and few suffered failures in the test
programme. Unfortunately, or fortunately, wartime shortages meant that the
production 004B would have subtle differences to the hand-built 004s in use
previously, with the end result that they sucked. Still, they didn't suck as
bad as history makes us believe - air starts WERE possible, and if pilots
minded their pre-flight instructions, problems were rare. Of greater
importance, the landing gear rate of failure and production defects (caused by
using slave labor) were appalling.

The Jumo 004D had entered production but not service and by accounts
it was to be significantly more reliable and easier to opperate.



It is said that when
TA152s were in the air no Me262s were ever lost.

The airfield protection Staffeln used VERY few Ta 152s - instead, most were
the later marks of FW 190 D-series. Ta 152 high-altitude interceptors don't help much when you are trying to protect low and slow "Turbos" in the traffic
pattern from Mustangs. The specialized, low alt Ta 152 might have
done better, but there were few to be had.

I suspect the TA152 pilots simply relied on their marginaly superior
speed and flak corridors. Probably these were some of the more
experienced pilots.


The aircarft could opperate at 470mph and at altitudes of nearly
45,000 ft and had a pressursied cabin. It was designed to take on
B29s.

Hard to believe. The RLM didn't field aircraft for non-existant threats;
quite the opposite, they rarely reacted in a timely fashion to actual, present
threats. The Ta 152 series was not intended specifically to counter the
B-29 - the great speed of the Tank fighter was intended to be used against
Mustangs and Mosquitos, and other fast targets that could not adequately
be countered by more conventional fighters, such as the tired old "Me".
The Ta would have made a fine bomber destroyer, but its not likely it was
designed and fielded with the B-29 in mind.

The B29 wasn't a non existant threat since it was in use against
Japan. The B29 was almost impune against interception by most
japanese aircaft types but it would have fared less well against the
Luftwaffe, nevertheless it still would have been much more difficult
to intercept becuase of its speed.

There is a story that the Night Fighter version of the Ju 388 were
built to counter a spoof RAF plan to bomb from the stratosphere at
night thus wasting Luftwaffe resources. Certainly the Ju388 would
also have been capable of a night time interception of a B29 class
aircraft but it was never needed.

Most of the RLMs (I don't blame the Luftwaffe so much) bad procurment
options seem to have come out of a directives built around an
assumption of victory within 2 years. Understandable but risky
reasoning as a war extending beyond that would exhaust the resource
poorer and outnumbered Reich so they poured their energies into a
sucker punch with the technology that they had. It failed.

That combined with delays in the Jumo 004B and the Jumo 222 piston
engine meant that they were at a qualitative disadvantage. By 1943
the Me262 should have been in service and the Ju288 bomber with a
speed of 408mph, 8800lb internal bombload and powerfull remote
controlled armament should also have been in service. The Jumo 004B
was the main delay in Me262 availability and the Jumo 222 only entered
production right at the end of the war for whatever reason.



With an Armament of 4 x 20mm and 1 x 30mm cannon it had the
power to do so.

Few carried that armament,

Some I beleive carried the higher velocity Mk 151/15 15mm cannon
instead of the Mk151/20mm cannon. The low velocity Mk108 30mm cannon
was carried but some version may have reached the front with the much
heavier Mk103 long barrelled 30mm cannon. I can only assumed some
versions carried the old FW190D armament.



and the Ta 152 program was cancelled before the war
ended,

I think a very large number of programs were cancelled in the last 2
months of the war.


while the Do 335 remained on the construction orders right to the end.
I believe if the B-29 ever arrived over Europe during the war, it would have
been met by the Dornier and the Me 262, which were the fighters that were
still intended to be built as of late April 45.

It certainly was a heavily armed aricraft wich could carry high
velocity weapons. (4 x Mk151/15 or 20/ and 1 x Mk103)

The problem this aircraft had was its nose prop which required a
pairing of two aircraft in a zwilling (double mustan arrangement) for
the radardome or antenna built into the leading edge of the wing. (By
this time the FuG 244 microwave radars were intended for
nightfighters)




v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

The aircarft could opperate at 470mph and at altitudes of nearly
45,000 ft and had a pressursied cabin. It was designed to take on
B29s.

Hard to believe. The RLM didn't field aircraft for non-existant threats;
quite the opposite, they rarely reacted in a timely fashion to actual,
present
threats. The Ta 152 series was not intended specifically to counter the
B-29 - the great speed of the Tank fighter was intended to be used against
Mustangs and Mosquitos, and other fast targets that could not adequately
be countered by more conventional fighters, such as the tired old "Me".
The Ta would have made a fine bomber destroyer, but its not likely it was
designed and fielded with the B-29 in mind.

The B29 wasn't a non existant threat since it was in use against
Japan.

Well, then the RLM would have needed to send a Geschwader or two to Hokkaido in
order to face that threat. By the time reports of B-29s filtered back to
Germany, Tank had been working on improving the FW 190 for years. I've never
seen anything from a German wartime source that mentions a B-29, and nothing in
the Tank file that suggests he needed it to provide motivation for creating
additional improvements to his signature prop fighter.

The B29 was almost impune against interception by most
japanese aircaft types but it would have fared less well against the
Luftwaffe, nevertheless it still would have been much more difficult
to intercept becuase of its speed.

I've never met a LW pilot, or read a report by a wartime German source that
knew anything about the B-29 until long after the war. The "boogie man" to the
Germans, from the bordfunkers in the 110s, the train engineers, all the way up
to Göring, Goebbels, and DF all point to the Mosquito. I have minutes to
meetings of the Jägerstab from 1945 and the men present are grim, determined,
and not interested in addressing threats faced by the Asian friends - they want
to know what industry is doing to stop those verdammt Mosquitos. No mention,
anywhere, of a B-29 threat that needs to be addressed.

There is a story that the Night Fighter version of the Ju 388 were
built to counter a spoof RAF plan to bomb from the stratosphere at
night thus wasting Luftwaffe resources. Certainly the Ju388 would
also have been capable of a night time interception of a B29 class
aircraft but it was never needed.

I have huge doubts that anyone in the RLM , the LW, or Junkers gave any
credence to the whimsical notion that a super-bomber from the USA was coming in
1945, to bomb the Reich *at night*.

By the time the 8-388 was coming off the drawing boards, Harris had announced
that "...the RAF was out of targets", and at about the same time, Bomber
Command began switching over to daylight bombing. I really have to wonder about
the source of your info as I haven't seen anything from BAMA that agrees with
it. B-29s at night? Really?? I know the RLM made some idiotic mistakes, but
I can't imagine they would entertain this notion, to the point that they
directed a version of the Ju 388 be prepared to counter it.

Most of the RLMs (I don't blame the Luftwaffe so much) bad procurment
options seem to have come out of a directives built around an
assumption of victory within 2 years.
Plenty of blame to go around - with the exceptio of Udet, most of the RLM
strikes me as incompetent.

Understandable but risky
reasoning as a war extending beyond that would exhaust the resource
poorer and outnumbered Reich so they poured their energies into a
sucker punch with the technology that they had. It failed.

My wife constantly corrects me, when I insist on "putting it all on black".
She has taught me over the years that 'if you ain't got a backup plan, you
ain't got a plan', and it seems that Hitler and crew never even considered a
backup plan. Thankfully, they hadn't married my wife...

That combined with delays in the Jumo 004B and the Jumo 222 piston
engine meant that they were at a qualitative disadvantage. By 1943
the Me262 should have been in service and the Ju288 bomber with a
speed of 408mph, 8800lb internal bombload and powerfull remote
controlled armament should also have been in service. The Jumo 004B
was the main delay in Me262 availability and the Jumo 222 only entered
production right at the end of the war for whatever reason.

Plus, too many projects were left waiting for these two, and the BMW 003. I
guess we should be thankfull.

With an Armament of 4 x 20mm and 1 x 30mm cannon it had the
power to do so.

Few carried that armament,

Some I beleive carried the higher velocity Mk 151/15 15mm cannon
instead of the Mk151/20mm cannon. The low velocity Mk108 30mm cannon
was carried but some version may have reached the front with the much
heavier Mk103 long barrelled 30mm cannon. I can only assumed some
versions carried the old FW190D armament.

From photos in my collection (and Nowarra's), it looks like there was little
standardization by this period - if they had cannons, they were fitted. Then
the pilots and warts removed what wasn't wanted. I interview JG 300 pilots
periodically and by that late in the war, pilots were opting for light armament
and stripped down a/c, whether they were nachtjäger or day fighters -- speed
was life and little else mattered. The day of loading armor and hanging extra
cannons on airframes was over and all that remained was a desire to get the
most performance out of each machine, to give the pilot a tiny momentary edge.
So, the lighter the better, including armament. Some of NJG 11 and JG 300, 301
and 302 birds carried as little as a single pair of 20mm cannons - one of my JG
301 photos shows exactly this setup with an FW 190 D; the cowl guns are removed
and there is only one gun per wing. My guess is that the pilot was not worried
about not having enough firepower, he just wanted the lightest ship he could
find.

and the Ta 152 program was cancelled before the war
ended,

I think a very large number of programs were cancelled in the last 2
months of the war.

That's obvious, but others, including the Dornier and a small assortment of
jets, were ordered to stay in production.

while the Do 335 remained on the construction orders right to the end.
I believe if the B-29 ever arrived over Europe during the war, it would
have
been met by the Dornier and the Me 262, which were the fighters that were
still intended to be built as of late April 45.

It certainly was a heavily armed aricraft wich could carry high
velocity weapons. (4 x Mk151/15 or 20/ and 1 x Mk103)

The problem this aircraft had was its nose prop which required a
pairing of two aircraft in a zwilling (double mustan arrangement) for
the radardome or antenna built into the leading edge of the wing. (By
this time the FuG 244 microwave radars were intended for
nightfighters)

The Zwilling 335 never made it off paper - the NF 335 would have remained more
traditional (if that can be said of any 335), with a humped spine for the
bordfunker and a leading-edge radar array. German pilots were odd when it came
to radar: while RAF nightfighter crews considered it an indespensible tool,
most LW crews thought of it as an extra weapon, to enhance their primary night
detection device, their eyes. As strange as that may sound, its a common
comment among vets. Since they had watched every single innovation of theirs
used against them by the British and their hunter-killer Mosquitos, flying
around broadcasting a radar was not seen as a terribly bright idea by
1944-1945.

Unlike other projects that led no-where, the NF 335 had already had its
prototype built and test flown -- were the war to continue, there is no doubt
that within weeks, it would have been in full production, as the Jägerstab
ordered. At that point, the RAF had already started to shut down the night
raids, so it was all moot.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

Gordon wrote:

: Plenty of blame to go around - with the exceptio of Udet, most of the RLM
: strikes me as incompetent.

Udet wasn't particularly competent either. A fine pilot,
but a poor industrialist, who did not plan sufficiently
ahead and really could not cope with the stress of his
office.

: The Zwilling 335 never made it off paper - the NF 335 would have remained more
: traditional (if that can be said of any 335), with a humped spine for the
: bordfunker and a leading-edge radar array.

No humped spine, actually: That was the trainer model, of which
some were modified as part of the prototype programme. But the
real nightfighter version would have a straight spine, which
meant that the radar operator had little outside view, but
apparently that wasn't much of a requirement.

: German pilots were odd when it came to radar: while RAF nightfighter
: crews considered it an indespensible tool, most LW crews thought of
: it as an extra weapon, to enhance their primary night
: detection device, their eyes.

German nightfighter radars failed to come even close to the
performance of the British centimetric radar sets. The yagi
aerials would always have broad, overlapping transmit/receive
lobes, and target location was by comparing the signal
differences. IN contrast, centimetric radar beams could be
steered by parabolic reflector dishes; giving much better
resolution and low-altitude performance.

At the very end of the war, the Germans had copied sets which
had fallen into their hands in the 'Berlin' radar sets, which
was fitted to a handful of Ju 88G nightfighters. However, it
would hardly have been possible to fit this to the Do 335;
except perhaps in a large underwing pod. So the Ju 388 was
actually the better basis for a future nightfighter.

Emmanuel Gustin

Contrary to legend, the Ta 152H did not have a laminar flow wing. I
have Focke Wulf documents showing that the wing used the same NACA
5-digit airfoils as the Fw 190. My "Incomplete Guide to Airfoil Usage"
gives the airfoil designations.

David Lednicer wrote in message ...
Contrary to legend, the Ta 152H did not have a laminar flow wing. I
have Focke Wulf documents showing that the wing used the same NACA
5-digit airfoils as the Fw 190. My "Incomplete Guide to Airfoil Usage"
gives the airfoil designations.


ADD: I have read somewhere the Globe Swift used the same NACA airfoil
as the 190 (or vice versa) - is that so?
Also - from all I have read laminar flow is delightful in theory and
essentially unobtainable/maintainable in practice. Dirt, bugs and
hangar rash all mitigate against it.
Walt BJ

TA152s were used to protect Me262 on takeoff and landing becuase the
underdeveloped Jumo 004B Jet engines had very restricted acceleration
and could easily be bounced by allied aircraft. It is said that when
TA152s were in the air no Me262s were ever lost.


Not all Ta 152s were used in that role. JV 44s Fockes were 4 190D-9s
and a single 190D-11.
As far as performance was concerned the Ta 152 in 1945 was inferior to
the latest Mark of Spitfire under 30,000 ft. Between 30,000-35,000 ft
the aircraft were equal. Above 35,000 ft the Ta 152 was superior all
the way up to 50,000 ft!

Rob

p.s. The Ta 152 was also fitted with a LGW-Siemens K23 autopilot to
reduce pilot fatigue.

It is said that when
TA152s were in the air no Me262s were ever lost.

Not all Ta 152s were used in that role. JV 44s Fockes were 4 190D-9s
and a single 190D-11.

seems ridiculous to expect a mere handful of 190s to be able to protect
"Turbos", when every single "silberplatz" had been identified and targeted by
the Allies!

As far as performance was concerned the Ta 152 in 1945 was inferior to
the latest Mark of Spitfire under 30,000 ft. Between 30,000-35,000 ft
the aircraft were equal. Above 35,000 ft the Ta 152 was superior all
the way up to 50,000 ft!

Which pilot logged a flight to 50k in a Ta 152? Curious to know is all.

p.s. The Ta 152 was also fitted with a LGW-Siemens K23 autopilot to
reduce pilot fatigue.

Hmmmm. Most flights by this point in the war were not that long and the K22
and K23 notations I have seen in conjunction with single engine fighters is to
enhance their foul weather performance, as I see this autopilot included in the
"Schlechtwetterjäger" variants of various late war fighters.

Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."