Why fly fast approaches?

I did my BFR last month in a PA28-181. It is an airplane new to the
flying club I belong to and although I have more than 60 hours in type,
the owner requires anyone who desires to rent it, have an instructor
checkout.

Prior to the flight I calculated a weight and balance and appropriate
speeds for the actual takeoff and landing weights.

I started to pull for takeoff at the calculated speed and the
instructor said, "No, no, wait until 65 kts."
Okay.

For the first landing, I stated the calculated 1.5Vso and 1.3Vso speeds.
The instructor again said, "No, no, that's too slow. Use 75 kts."

When we were on the ground, I asked him why he wanted the faster speeds.
His answer was that this was not a new airplane, so the book values
needed to be increased to allow for age related things that could
affect the noted V-speeds.

I can understand the reasoning for a student pilot, the likes of which
this instructor does a lot of training with, but I am 1200+ and over 20
years of flying. I am thinking in terms of performance as would apply
to the Commercial standards. Hence, the reason for calculating the
necessary speeds prior to flight.

I will add that flying at the instructor's recommended speeds leads to
float in the roundout and required more runway. Flying at the
calculated speeds would have resulted in a full stall landing at the
threshhold and clearing at the first turnoff.

What is the perspective of the instructors in this group?
The instructor I fly with knows me. Why would he not hold me to
Commercial standards?

Good landings are slow landings. It is all energy management, and his method
increases the amount of kinetic energy to be dissipated by floating, heating
the brakes, or wearing flat spots on the tires. His argument is fallacious.

Bob Gardner

"EDR" wrote in message
...
I did my BFR last month in a PA28-181. It is an airplane new to the
flying club I belong to and although I have more than 60 hours in type,
the owner requires anyone who desires to rent it, have an instructor
checkout.

Prior to the flight I calculated a weight and balance and appropriate
speeds for the actual takeoff and landing weights.

I started to pull for takeoff at the calculated speed and the
instructor said, "No, no, wait until 65 kts."
Okay.

For the first landing, I stated the calculated 1.5Vso and 1.3Vso speeds.
The instructor again said, "No, no, that's too slow. Use 75 kts."

When we were on the ground, I asked him why he wanted the faster speeds.
His answer was that this was not a new airplane, so the book values
needed to be increased to allow for age related things that could
affect the noted V-speeds.

I can understand the reasoning for a student pilot, the likes of which
this instructor does a lot of training with, but I am 1200+ and over 20
years of flying. I am thinking in terms of performance as would apply
to the Commercial standards. Hence, the reason for calculating the
necessary speeds prior to flight.

I will add that flying at the instructor's recommended speeds leads to
float in the roundout and required more runway. Flying at the
calculated speeds would have resulted in a full stall landing at the
threshhold and clearing at the first turnoff.

What is the perspective of the instructors in this group?
The instructor I fly with knows me. Why would he not hold me to
Commercial standards?

"EDR" wrote in message
...

What is the perspective of the instructors in this group?

What you did was fine.

The instructor either is used to primary students or perhaps is not
comfortable himself with the airplane at 1.3 Vso.


--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

I think the instructor's reasoning is faulty. Why would the stall speed
increase as the airplane ages? If it has increased measurably, then
something needs to be repaired.

I don't even teach student pilots to fly faster than necessary. It is too
easy for a student to lose control on a fast approach, especially if he
balloons or bounces.

"EDR" wrote in message
...

I did my BFR last month in a PA28-181. It is an airplane new to the
flying club I belong to and although I have more than 60 hours in type,
the owner requires anyone who desires to rent it, have an instructor
checkout.

Prior to the flight I calculated a weight and balance and appropriate
speeds for the actual takeoff and landing weights.

I started to pull for takeoff at the calculated speed and the
instructor said, "No, no, wait until 65 kts."
Okay.

For the first landing, I stated the calculated 1.5Vso and 1.3Vso speeds.
The instructor again said, "No, no, that's too slow. Use 75 kts."

When we were on the ground, I asked him why he wanted the faster speeds.
His answer was that this was not a new airplane, so the book values
needed to be increased to allow for age related things that could
affect the noted V-speeds.

I can understand the reasoning for a student pilot, the likes of which
this instructor does a lot of training with, but I am 1200+ and over 20
years of flying. I am thinking in terms of performance as would apply
to the Commercial standards. Hence, the reason for calculating the
necessary speeds prior to flight.

I will add that flying at the instructor's recommended speeds leads to
float in the roundout and required more runway. Flying at the
calculated speeds would have resulted in a full stall landing at the
threshhold and clearing at the first turnoff.

What is the perspective of the instructors in this group?
The instructor I fly with knows me. Why would he not hold me to
Commercial standards?


Fast approaches are good when there is fast traffic behind you. But fast
landings are another matter entirely.

Richard,

Well then this instructor will be really un-comfortable in my airplane.
Final is done at 70-65 MPH (61-56 Knots).
Final landing is around 55 MPH (48 knots). ;-)

Michelle

Richard Kaplan wrote:

"EDR" wrote in message
.. .

What is the perspective of the instructors in this group?

What you did was fine.

The instructor either is used to primary students or perhaps is not
comfortable himself with the airplane at 1.3 Vso.


--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com





--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 00:09:18 GMT, EDR
wrote:

I did my BFR last month in a PA28-181. It is an airplane new to the
flying club I belong to and although I have more than 60 hours in type,
the owner requires anyone who desires to rent it, have an instructor
checkout.

Prior to the flight I calculated a weight and balance and appropriate
speeds for the actual takeoff and landing weights.

I started to pull for takeoff at the calculated speed and the
instructor said, "No, no, wait until 65 kts."
Okay.

Why do you want to hold it on the ground that long? I own a '67
PA28-235 and couldn't tell you the actual rotation speed. When it
wants to fly, let it fly! I do know it is well below 65Kts though
cause I've seen the airspeed pass through it as I'm gaining altitude.

For the first landing, I stated the calculated 1.5Vso and 1.3Vso speeds.
The instructor again said, "No, no, that's too slow. Use 75 kts."
I'd rather 70kts as a rule of thumb. The only advantage this gives
you is slightly better control effectiveness, otherwise use what
you're comfortable with.


When we were on the ground, I asked him why he wanted the faster speeds.
His answer was that this was not a new airplane, so the book values
needed to be increased to allow for age related things that could
affect the noted V-speeds.
Puppycock! (And many other expletives as well). Arguments can be made
that dirt and grime accumulate and make an airplane heavier. No one
considers the fact that radios way back when weighed a heck of a lot
more than they do now. I took about 30 lbs. of extraneous crap and
wiring out of my plane when I bought it. IMO it's a trade off and his
rule is not a good one. How's it Feel at the speed you're flying. If
it feels good great, if it doesn't feel good adjust a little bit.


I can understand the reasoning for a student pilot, the likes of which
this instructor does a lot of training with, but I am 1200+ and over 20
years of flying. I am thinking in terms of performance as would apply
to the Commercial standards. Hence, the reason for calculating the
necessary speeds prior to flight.

I will add that flying at the instructor's recommended speeds leads to
float in the roundout and required more runway. Flying at the
calculated speeds would have resulted in a full stall landing at the
threshhold and clearing at the first turnoff.
If you start your "round out" earlier you can still land on the
threshold, but then you'd be going below his required speeds. So, yes
listening to him wastes runway needlessly.


What is the perspective of the instructors in this group?
He's a 141 rat that needs to learn how to fly a wing, and not the
airspeed indicator. (I know I'm being hard and don't know the guy,
but what you wrote doesn't make sense.)

The instructor I fly with knows me. Why would he not hold me to
Commercial standards?
This is not (yet) required for completion of a BFR.

What is the perspective of the instructors in this group?

Cowardice on the instructor's part. Much of the art of flying
requires that our brain rule our emotions. The instructor appears to
have surrendered to fear.

On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 03:05:54 GMT, Michelle P
wrote:

Sorry for the "me too" post, but I approach at 60mph
and when the tires chirp onto the pavement, I'm probably
doing 40-45mph. 8^)

Bela P. Havasreti

Richard,

Well then this instructor will be really un-comfortable in my airplane.
Final is done at 70-65 MPH (61-56 Knots).
Final landing is around 55 MPH (48 knots). ;-)

Michelle

Richard Kaplan wrote:

"EDR" wrote in message
. ..

What is the perspective of the instructors in this group?

What you did was fine.

The instructor either is used to primary students or perhaps is not
comfortable himself with the airplane at 1.3 Vso.


--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 00:09:18 GMT, EDR wrote:

I did my BFR last month in a PA28-181. It is an airplane new to the
flying club I belong to and although I have more than 60 hours in type,
the owner requires anyone who desires to rent it, have an instructor
checkout.

Prior to the flight I calculated a weight and balance and appropriate
speeds for the actual takeoff and landing weights.

I started to pull for takeoff at the calculated speed and the
instructor said, "No, no, wait until 65 kts."
Okay.

For the first landing, I stated the calculated 1.5Vso and 1.3Vso speeds.
The instructor again said, "No, no, that's too slow. Use 75 kts."

When we were on the ground, I asked him why he wanted the faster speeds.
His answer was that this was not a new airplane, so the book values
needed to be increased to allow for age related things that could
affect the noted V-speeds.

Unless the instructor was joking with you, it might be time for a new
instructor. Aircraft age has nothing to do with V speeds.

I fly final in my PA28-180 at 80mph, and slow to 75 crossing the
threshold. This is right at 1.3Vso, (57*1.3=74) and it works well.