MDW Overrun - SWA

Not blame, or assigned, but there is no need to wait for a
final NTSB report if a reasoned judgment can suggest an
improvement.


A reasoned judgment cannot be made before the facts are known and the
facts cannot be known until the investigation is complete.

In article sNDmf.18754$QW2.11364@dukeread08, Jim Macklin
wrote:

It was a stupid error on the part of flight crew...

Apparently you've already figured the whole thing out. Why don't you
call the NTSB and tell them you can save them a whole bunch of time and
expense?

How do you know there wasn't a mechanical malfunction with the plane?
You don't.

How do you know the airport wind indicator was calibrated correctly?
You don't.

How do you know the braking action report was accurate? You don't.
Saranac Lake, NY, had an airplane stop sideways in the snow because the
person who was supposed to make the field condition report MADE IT UP.
Read it if you like:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?...ntsbno=IAD98LA
023&akey=1


Here's an excerpt:

===
The ground agent stated:

"...At 1900, airport employee...came into the terminal. I immediately
asked him for a field conditions report. He replied that he hadn't
checked them (the field conditions) and that I should put in my report
the same conditions as were last reported. He then asked me what the
last report stated the field conditions to be. I replied that the
airport had reported one quarter inch of dry snow over hard packed snow
and ice, braking action reported as poor. He again told me to make the
same report and sat down to watch television...."
===




So... How about letting the investigators do their jobs before you hang
the crew out to dry with only the "facts" the news media gave you?

This is not just a problem with SE trainers,
look at the tires on a Lear or King Air next time you have
the chance, it isn't uncommon to see all the tire wear on
the co-pilot's side because the Captain does all the
landings.

Interesting observation, Jim -- thanks.

As a new pilot I used to occasionally have trouble landing in a slight crab,
even when there was no crosswind. (In fact, it was sometimes worse with NO
wind at all.) I cured that problem by consciously aligning the nose and
tail of the plane with the runway, not just aligning *me* with the runway.

Now, it's second nature, but it took some analysis to figure out what I was
doing wrong. It never dawned on me that this was common, and would result
in uneven nose-tire wear!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I stand by my experience, over 8,000 hours. Have flown
single pilot in all models of the King Air, am type rated in
the BE300 [350]/1900 and the BE400/MU300 jet. I have flown
single pilot into O'Hare and Midway, Atlanta and St. Louis
in all weather conditions.
I have been pressured to make flights by employers and
passengers. I have gone as far as to tell passengers that
"if we go, you'll die" and I have diverted, delayed and even
cancelled [don't like to do that, it costs me money].

Many pilots, in my experience, do not fully read and
understand the info that is on an approach plate. Many
don't realize the limitations of an ILS.


Yes, in my mind I have figured this out. I expect the NTSB
will reach the same conclusion in a year or so, they must be
99.99% sure, I don't need to be that positive.

Because snow was falling during and after the accident, it
is likely that the actual touchdown point will never be
known, my guess is that it was with about 4,000 remaining.
With a snow covered and icy runway and a 7 knot tailwind
component, that wasn't enough.

Personally, waiting for the NTSB before making critical
training and operational decisions based on this accident
is like waiting for the next terrorist attack before arming
the pilots with 45 ACP 200 grain flying ashtrays.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm



"beavis" wrote in message
...
| In article sNDmf.18754$QW2.11364@dukeread08, Jim Macklin
| wrote:
|
| It was a stupid error on the part of flight crew...
|
| Apparently you've already figured the whole thing out.
Why don't you
| call the NTSB and tell them you can save them a whole
bunch of time and
| expense?
|
| How do you know there wasn't a mechanical malfunction with
the plane?
| You don't.
|
| How do you know the airport wind indicator was calibrated
correctly?
| You don't.
|
| How do you know the braking action report was accurate?
You don't.
| Saranac Lake, NY, had an airplane stop sideways in the
snow because the
| person who was supposed to make the field condition report
MADE IT UP.
| Read it if you like:
|
|
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?...ntsbno=IAD98LA
| 023&akey=1
|
|
| Here's an excerpt:
|
| ===
| The ground agent stated:
|
| "...At 1900, airport employee...came into the terminal. I
immediately
| asked him for a field conditions report. He replied that
he hadn't
| checked them (the field conditions) and that I should put
in my report
| the same conditions as were last reported. He then asked
me what the
| last report stated the field conditions to be. I replied
that the
| airport had reported one quarter inch of dry snow over
hard packed snow
| and ice, braking action reported as poor. He again told me
to make the
| same report and sat down to watch television...."
| ===
|
|
|
|
| So... How about letting the investigators do their jobs
before you hang
| the crew out to dry with only the "facts" the news media
gave you?

It is not stressed during check-outs, to get a true sight
picture. In many airplanes the pilot sits about 5 degrees
from his eye to the only visible part of the cowl/nose and
that is the hump over the prop. Unless to conscientiously
avoid using it as a reference, your eye will use it as a
default reference for alignment.

It is very easy to fix as a pilot or instructor if you know
to look for the signs. If you are an instructor giving a
flight review to an owner, you can gain extra points by
telling him about his landing problem even before you start
the engine.

A grease penciled mark (I like crosshairs on the spot) makes
it easy to cure the pilot and teach the student. Soon they
won't need it.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm



"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
newsnFmf.394608$084.59578@attbi_s22...
| This is not just a problem with SE trainers,
| look at the tires on a Lear or King Air next time you
have
| the chance, it isn't uncommon to see all the tire wear
on
| the co-pilot's side because the Captain does all the
| landings.
|
| Interesting observation, Jim -- thanks.
|
| As a new pilot I used to occasionally have trouble landing
in a slight crab,
| even when there was no crosswind. (In fact, it was
sometimes worse with NO
| wind at all.) I cured that problem by consciously
aligning the nose and
| tail of the plane with the runway, not just aligning *me*
with the runway.
|
| Now, it's second nature, but it took some analysis to
figure out what I was
| doing wrong. It never dawned on me that this was common,
and would result
| in uneven nose-tire wear!
| --
| Jay Honeck
| Iowa City, IA
| Pathfinder N56993
| www.AlexisParkInn.com
| "Your Aviation Destination"
|
|

In article KtFmf.18762$QW2.17385@dukeread08, Jim Macklin
wrote:

I stand by my experience, over 8,000 hours. Have flown
single pilot in all models of the King Air, am type rated in
the BE300 [350]/1900 and the BE400/MU300 jet. I have flown
single pilot into O'Hare and Midway, Atlanta and St. Louis
in all weather conditions.

And I'll stand by mine, over 9,000 hours, with time in King Airs, and
time and type ratings in the 1900, and the 737. I have 6,000 hours and
8 years as an airline pilots, flying more hours than I care to recall
through some of the nastiest snowstorms I've seen.

I'll stand by my point: You have no idea what CAUSED the crash. Yes,
there was snow. Yes, the runway was short. Yes, there was a tailwind.
But was any of these the overriding cause? YOU DON'T KNOW. And
neither do I. That was my point.

No, nobody knows for sire, 100% what the cause was, not even
the two pilots in the cockpit. Even after the NTSB releases
their report and conclusions, there will be some room for
"what if and whys" since they will not have complete data,
since the runway was covered with fresh snow and it is not
likely that they can determine the exact point of touchdown.

But what is known right now, the runway is marginal under
the best of conditions, ask the ALPA if Midway is anywhere
close to the design of a modern jet airport.
The ILS and displaced threshold are published and fixed. If
the pilot hand flew the approach, the could have flown one
or two dots low [needle above center] but a coupled approach
would put the aircraft in the center of the touchdown zone,
with about 4300 feet available, on a snow packed runway with
fair to good braking action on the first half and poor on
the part that the stop would be made on.

What is also absolutely true, if the pilot had diverted to
another airport they would not have had an accident at
Midway. They could have crashed somewhere else, but I
always thought that trying to make the most safe choice was
the goal of an airline pilot.

I stand by my opinion, the pilot made a stupid decision, for
what ever reason.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"beavis" wrote in message
...
| In article KtFmf.18762$QW2.17385@dukeread08, Jim Macklin
| wrote:
|
| I stand by my experience, over 8,000 hours. Have flown
| single pilot in all models of the King Air, am type
rated in
| the BE300 [350]/1900 and the BE400/MU300 jet. I have
flown
| single pilot into O'Hare and Midway, Atlanta and St.
Louis
| in all weather conditions.
|
| And I'll stand by mine, over 9,000 hours, with time in
King Airs, and
| time and type ratings in the 1900, and the 737. I have
6,000 hours and
| 8 years as an airline pilots, flying more hours than I
care to recall
| through some of the nastiest snowstorms I've seen.
|
| I'll stand by my point: You have no idea what CAUSED the
crash. Yes,
| there was snow. Yes, the runway was short. Yes, there
was a tailwind.
| But was any of these the overriding cause? YOU DON'T
KNOW. And
| neither do I. That was my point.

Rachel wrote:
Jim Macklin wrote:
snip
I would like to know why the PIC did not divert to O'Hare or
some other airport.

Well, my personal theory on not diverting is that no Southwest captain
would be caught dead landing at ORD.

SWA is starting at DIA, been at LAX, SEA, etc. for years. Their last
incident of this
type was at BUR, into the Chevron station. RUNL gas was $1.59, the good
ole days!

JG

Jim Macklin wrote:
I would like to know why the PIC did not divert to O'Hare or
some other airport. Seems pretty simple , the plane stopped
right where a calculation indicates it would stop.

The seasoned flier will spare the extra $$ for assigned seats at the
BIG
airport during the winter. Longer runways and top shelf Daley relatives
driving
the plows. The under-acheivers get dumped plowing at MDW

JG



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Paul kgyy" wrote in message
ups.com...
| yep
|

Someday, the Daley gang will all be in jail, but still, the
diversion decision should be based on the weather, not local
crooked politicians. When I was faced with a diversion
choice, I always went to SPI because I could drop in on my
mother.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm



wrote in message
oups.com...
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| I would like to know why the PIC did not divert to
O'Hare or
| some other airport. Seems pretty simple , the plane
stopped
| right where a calculation indicates it would stop.
|
| The seasoned flier will spare the extra $$ for assigned
seats at the
| BIG
| airport during the winter. Longer runways and top shelf
Daley relatives
| driving
| the plows. The under-acheivers get dumped plowing at MDW

|
| JG
|
|
|
| --
| James H. Macklin
| ATP,CFI,A&P
|
| "Paul kgyy" wrote in message
|
ups.com...
| | yep
| |
|