Lidle crash: who is wrong?

Thanks
"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
. ..
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:4ApXg.2566$XX2.1045@dukeread04...
| All my flying in the NYC area has been in King Air and
| Beechjet aircraft, have not run the VFR corridors.
Don't
| have a current chart and not sure what they did and what
the
| rules are. Anybody know of a free download for a
terminal
| NYC chart that shows the area in question?
|
| http://skyvector.com/
|
|

Thanks again.
"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
| "Jim Macklin"
wrote:
|
| Anybody know of a free download for a terminal
| NYC chart that shows the area in question?
|
| http://skyvector.com/

Mucho gratis
"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...
| "Jim Macklin"
wrote:
|
| Anybody know of a free download for a terminal
| NYC chart that shows the area in question?
|
|
http://aviationtoolbox.org/raw_data/...20TAC%2069.tif
| (31MB)
|
|

Peter R. wrote:

How does an aircraft hit the north face of a building along the river
there? One possibility is that the pilot lost control of the aircraft
during the turn, say due to a stall. Another possibility is that the pilot
misjudged the point at which to begin the turn.

--
Peter

Thanks Peter and others for your answers. I'm no pilot, just trying to
understand. Sadly I'm incapacitated by effects of
cancer/cancer-treatment and I basically lie about looking out my 20th
floor window over the Hudson at the Holland Tunnel. It's a rare day I
don't flinch at least once from a small plane or chopper suddenly
looming what seems to be a bit too large in my window... But it's
funny, I would not support clapping new restrictive measures on General
Aviation around Manhattan. As this brutal illness in my early 40s has
taught me (well, I knew it before, but not so deeply), there is an
irreducible risk simply to being a meat creature in a world of such
physical forces and programmed mortality. Much, I'm afraid most, of
reality is bleak and we should preserve the aspects of our culture that
allow at least some of us to rise above it some of the time. You folks
in your flying machines represent that to me, and any assault on your
freedoms would need to be justified by a much denser history of mishaps
than exists to date.

Hmm sorry for the speech. One must vent occasionally. Back to the
issue... it seems a fair speculation from a few of the comments above
that the existence of this particular VFR corridor border at this
particular spot may have been a determining factor. Maybe Lidle was a
crash waiting to happen, but his rendevous with this exact building on
this day could have been a function of corridor layout. Maybe there
should not be seams in VFR corridors obliging pilots to negotiate
high-skill turns over ultra-populated ground?

--
B

James Robinson wrote:

"Blasto" wrote:

Well, one thing that's needed is a definite time for the crash. If
you set Passur for 2:38 you'll see a plane following the CNN account
(although CNN has now switched to the Mayor's version)... In fact if
you just stare at Passur for a little while you'll see planes all
over the place dropping from the display where there are no airports.

So assuming the up-the-East-River account is correct, how did Lidle
(or the instructor) manage to hit the north face of the building?
That seems an impossibly tight turn.

You get different data from the different airports in Passur. If you
use EWR as the base airport, you can see the plane made two turns
around the Statue of Liberty, which you can't see from the other
airports.

If look at the LaGuardia feed, you can not only use the 10 mile scale,
you can also see the aircraft fly up to Roosevelt Island, then make a
180 turn toward the left before disappearing.

To correct my earlier post, Lidle's aircraft only made one turn around
the Statue. I was confused by the three aircraft that were in the area
at the time.

As far as the time of the accident, on the LGA feed, you can see the
aircraft make a left turn over Roosevelt Island just after 14:41

http://www4.passur.com/lga.html

Much, I'm afraid most, of
reality is bleak and we should preserve the aspects of our culture that
allow at least some of us to rise above it some of the time. You folks
in your flying machines represent that to me, and any assault on your
freedoms would need to be justified by a much denser history of mishaps
than exists to date.

Hmm sorry for the speech.

That's a speech that needs to be heard more often. Thanks for sharing
it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Blasto wrote:

Thanks Peter and others for your answers. I'm no pilot, just trying to
understand. Sadly I'm incapacitated by effects of
cancer/cancer-treatment

Wow, I am very sorry to read this. My thoughts are with you.

and I basically lie about looking out my 20th
floor window over the Hudson at the Holland Tunnel. It's a rare day I
don't flinch at least once from a small plane or chopper suddenly
looming what seems to be a bit too large in my window...

Not something that you are able to get used to, but rest assured that those
pilots are very alert to the surrounding buildings in that area. This is
especially notable of the helicopter pilots, who fly that airspace many
times a day.

snip
You folks
in your flying machines represent that to me, and any assault on your
freedoms would need to be justified by a much denser history of mishaps
than exists to date.

I have read of airplanes experiencing engine failure that resulted in a
ditching in the Hudson, but AFAIK, this is the first fatality in a fixed
wing aircraft over the VFR corridor in many years. Keep in mind that this
is a very popular flight with pilots and many make it each day.

snip
Maybe Lidle was a
crash waiting to happen, but his rendevous with this exact building on
this day could have been a function of corridor layout. Maybe there
should not be seams in VFR corridors obliging pilots to negotiate
high-skill turns over ultra-populated ground?

In looking at the NY Times animation of the flight path, which most likely
contains inaccuracies, a thought occurred to me: Given that there was a
CFI aboard, I wonder if the Cirrus purposely avoided flying directly over
Roosevelt Island and instead remained west of the island and over the
water, which significantly reduced what little airspace they had to make
the U-turn?

The only time I flew up the East River corridor (three or four years ago
and in a C172), my decision where to U-turn , which I had thought of when
planning the flight, involved doing so well south of Roosevelt Island, over
what seemed to be the widest point of the East River. Mind you, I am not
at all meaning to compare decision-making skills, but rather to demonstrate
that I was concerned both about remaining well clear of the Class B
airspace at the northern tip of Roosevelt Island and to be over a wide
enough point of the river in which to execute the turn.

Admittedly, in thinking of this accident I discovered that my one major
weakness in flying the East River that day was the fact that I never even
gave the winds aloft any thought and I, too, turned into Manhattan to make
the turn. At the time I probably only had about 100 hours.


--
Peter

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ups.com...
Much, I'm afraid most, of
reality is bleak and we should preserve the aspects of our culture that
allow at least some of us to rise above it some of the time. You folks
in your flying machines represent that to me, and any assault on your
freedoms would need to be justified by a much denser history of mishaps
than exists to date.

Hmm sorry for the speech.

That's a speech that needs to be heard more often. Thanks for sharing
it.

Very much along those lines...
http://boortz.com/nuze/200610/10122006.html#crash

Neil Boortz is a 2500 hr pilot.

Matt Barrow wrote:


Very much along those lines...
http://boortz.com/nuze/200610/10122006.html#crash

Neil Boortz is a 2500 hr pilot.


Instructor just identified. California-based instructor
(who also held an A&P cert.).

Peter R. wrote:
Blasto wrote:

Thanks Peter and others for your answers. I'm no pilot, just trying to
understand. Sadly I'm incapacitated by effects of
cancer/cancer-treatment

Wow, I am very sorry to read this. My thoughts are with you.


Thanks very much. I try not to mention this on Usenet but sometimes the
need for a touch of sympathy gets the upper hand.

snip.

I have read of airplanes experiencing engine failure that resulted in a
ditching in the Hudson, but AFAIK, this is the first fatality in a fixed
wing aircraft over the VFR corridor in many years. Keep in mind that this
is a very popular flight with pilots and many make it each day.

snip
Maybe Lidle was a
crash waiting to happen, but his rendevous with this exact building on
this day could have been a function of corridor layout. Maybe there
should not be seams in VFR corridors obliging pilots to negotiate
high-skill turns over ultra-populated ground?

In looking at the NY Times animation of the flight path, which most likely
contains inaccuracies, a thought occurred to me: Given that there was a
CFI aboard, I wonder if the Cirrus purposely avoided flying directly over
Roosevelt Island and instead remained west of the island and over the
water, which significantly reduced what little airspace they had to make
the U-turn?

The only time I flew up the East River corridor (three or four years ago
and in a C172), my decision where to U-turn , which I had thought of when
planning the flight, involved doing so well south of Roosevelt Island, over
what seemed to be the widest point of the East River. Mind you, I am not
at all meaning to compare decision-making skills, but rather to demonstrate
that I was concerned both about remaining well clear of the Class B
airspace at the northern tip of Roosevelt Island and to be over a wide
enough point of the river in which to execute the turn.

Admittedly, in thinking of this accident I discovered that my one major
weakness in flying the East River that day was the fact that I never even
gave the winds aloft any thought and I, too, turned into Manhattan to make
the turn. At the time I probably only had about 100 hours.
--
Peter

While reading the above I thought of the video snippets of Lidle in the
cockpit played yesterday by CNN. In one, he's over Philly and says
something to the effect it's too bad the stadium (where he pitched for
the Phillies) was off-limits. He looks almost tempted for a second to
say "what the hell" and head there anyway... Now it appears he, unlike
your equivalently inexperienced self, followed the corridor to the
utmost northern extremity right over Roosevelt Island, maybe to get
that last glimpse of Babe's house before decamping for the off-season
and a distinct chance the Yanks wouldn't be bringing him back for `07?

It's stuff like this that leads me to worry even less as I watch all
the hurtling steel and composite out my window. Celebrities and
athletes are odd, rare cases, so I feel the great majority of pilots
are more reliable, conscientious, etc.,. It makes me want to say
something like "Maybe there should be a rule requiring anybody from a
non-aviation background with fewer than 100 hours to be accompanied by
an instructor over the Hudson and East River", but of course Lidle
*was*.... I can see the instructor taking over just 4 seconds too late.
After all, they missed safety only by about 50 horizontal feet. That
much and they would have just cleared the NE corner, casting a shadow
on the strip of grass between the building and the river and then
getting back over the water.

--
B