The 11 best things at the 2015 15m/Std Class Nationals at Harris Hill

On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 1:33:04 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
FWIW, again, I strongly disagree.

Pilots are simply not innocently waiting around in the start cylinder for the "most favorable conditions." Common! That is probably only 10% true, especially at high levels. That statement is pretty funny to me and I think plain false. It damages the discussion here because it is so false. U.S. Pilots are, in general, fairly well conditioned to search for, find and wait around with other pilots (in an accelerated high energy gaggle) to start, often for what seems to be quite and endless amount of time. What goes on in these gaggles is often quite exhilarating to say the least.

Your response is a gross oversimplification and is obviously aimed at me. So I'll bite and respond.

We already know the behavior that a start time limit would produce. Look at any start recording in see you where it's late in the day and the conditions are expected to be very week. The final day of this years PAGC is a great example. There are many, many more.

I contend that we simply will move the endless start posturing process forward with a reasonable time limit on the "game." It will be the same, just shorter in many cases or in a day where conditions are expected to be strongest late in the day. I am in NO WAY asking for a Grand Prix start in all US contest. Please! That would be too good. Too simple!

That said, in a "real" glider race start (Sailplane Grand Prix), the better pilots actually leave the followers rather quickly. I do not believe that (in the U.S.) gaggles would be any larger than they are now. I contend that the gaggles would be SMALLER and would BREAK UP FASTER than current US rules. But I digress...

At the Sailplane Grand Prix World Championship level gaggles break up almost immediately (the best sailplane competition pilots in the world, easily capable of leeching most of the others all day long). Go ahead and look at the flights (recorded on YouTube) PLEASE rather than guessing what will happen! Don't assume or take what someone tells you here to be true. I promise you that SGP finishes are never a big gaggle. In fact usually 20 minutes into the task they are broken up. These are 20 glider classes (no bigger or smaller than our nationals usually). SGP gaggles break up rather quickly on weak and strong days alike (and in mountains and flatlands).

This misconception propagated by many here about Sailplane Grand Prix or start time limits promoting gaggles is amazing in light of those clear, easily available facts. Watch the races. See what happens.

Furthermore, I contend that IT IS ACTUALLY UNLIMITED START WINDOWS (our current rules) THAT PROMOTE OUR GAGGLES. I believe that I can prove it with a short video mash-up of some recent U.S. tasks. You betcha...coming soon! Thanks for forcing me to do more homework Andy.

The definition of insanity is said to be "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." Wise words, wise words.

I simply would rather "get to it" and race with less dangerous, wasteful loitering in the start area. A fact many here seem to consistently discount or ignore in these debates is the very real safety risk that our current starting rules consistently create. Eventually, this risk we all must take (willingly, in the case of many) is going to catch up with a couple of us. When it does it is going to sting. I have witnessed some extremely close calls. I am absolutely NOT A FAN of start gaggles waiting around for long periods (with great conditions by the way) playing the "2 minute descent thru the (randomly, disorganized and unpredictable) spinning furball" game. This is the worst, most dangerous, most pointless aspect of the sport of soaring. I find it, frankly, disturbing. The interrelationship of unlimited start time and the two minute below max start height rule creates a mass panic of descenders as the first key starters begin to go (often a fake) out the top of a strong thermal. This pattern just keeps repeating usually. We must minimize this macho game of who can out-wait the rest of them.

Finally, there is no correlation to starting rules and course type. Starting sooner is equally good for all task types, even hats (OLC).

I have always thought quite differently that most. That said I am shocked in the way many perceive the pre start patterns of sailplane competition with a shoulder shrug to safety. It's a sport. Sports are constrained by boundaries in 3D space and time. DEAL WITH IT! ACCEPT IT. An unlimited start window makes it less of a sport and more of a game IMO.

Unlimited starting times are bad for competition quality and create highly dangerous, unpredictable patterns in our cherished soaring time/distance contests (absolutely not racing). More soon!

End-

While trying not to be disagreeable, I don't agree.
If the intent is to start last and run down the group, the pilot still waits as late as possible. Then, when the start time window runs out, he goes, along with everybody else that is trying to do the same thing. The competitive part of the fleet all starts in the last few seconds and has been winding up at the top for the last 2 or 3 minutes.
I was there when this was tried. We scared ourselves silly.
UH