End of Season Sunset Warning for SSA-OLC Participants

Eric Greenwell wrote:
Do you believe requiring pilots to adhere to FAA rules (already in place
before the flight) like airspace and sunset for an OLC flight is
"changing the rules" for an OLC flight?

I was responding to the specific comment "Obviously, night cross country
in gliders is very dangerous, due to the possibility of an outlanding
in a dark field, so I hope we don't have to wait until someone dies to
address this." My response is, perhaps, but I don't know of a single
fatal outlanding accident that has occurred after sunset, but I know of
some that have occurred before. By this reasoning, we would all be
safer if we banned daytime flight.

As far as the lights go, I can
imagine the IGC, OLC, or the SSA might decide (sometime in the future)
that competitions would be better if sunset was chosen for the end of
the day. I can't imagine it would happen without the usual discussion
(meaning, for example, Doug H wouldn't decide it on his own); and if it
did, there would be lot of discussion afterwards, and undoubtedly
pressure on our directors to reconsider, so it wouldn't remain for long
as an "arbitrary" decision.

My issue is transparency. If we're going to change rules, rightly or
wrongly, there needs to be a process by which there is public
notification of intent, time for discussion before the directors vote,
rather than afterwards, and plenty of public warning of the impending
change...

Marc

Marc Ramsey wrote:


...they don't have to worry that some people sitting around a table
three months later will arbitrarily change the rules on them. With
respect, I wish the same could be said of the SSA.

The SSA hasn't changed the OLC rules. They have added a capability to
examine apparent rule breaking that did not previously exist in the OLC
-- a standard and capability not so different from the process in
contests -- and a standard any responsible organization must maintain.

Where's the beef?



Jack

I suspect that the chance of loosing lift in a glider is significantly
higher than loosing an engine. I personally do not think it is a good idea
to fly at night in a single engine power plane unless you have a full moon
and are over very favorable terrain.

Mike Schumann

"Ian Cant" wrote in message
...
Is night cross-country in an adequately-equipped glider
inherently more dangerous than night cross-country
in a Cessna ? Each is one failure [loss of lift or
loss of engine] away from that dark field. It might
be more accurate to say that at night you need to give
yourself much wider safety margins than in daylight.

Ian





At 23:12 12 September 2006, Doug Haluza wrote:

Obviously, night cross country
in gliders is very dangerous, due to the possibility
of an outlanding
in a dark field, so I hope we don't have to wait until
someone dies to
address this.

Eric Greenwell wrote:

...I would be in favor of an OLC rule that requires landing by
sunset to avoid giving an advantage to the few gliders with lights,
and to discourage pilots from adding lights.

How about a limit on span? No untoward advantage must accrue to those
who do simply because they can do.


I have a 36 ah battery, so I could add lights without too much trouble,
but I think the OLC would be better if I had to land before sunset.

The OLC will only be worse if it starts to supplement official
regulations with its own restrictions. As it is, we are all wound up
because some few don't believe we should conform to the rules that
already exist.

I was very excited about OLC last year. This year has been one
frustration after another, personally and nationally -- but I still like
it, and I think we are making too much out of the difficulties.

The FAA is not going to change the rules for night flight in order to
allow the OLC to conform to Eric's or Jack's preferences. As long as
everybody plays by the same rules, whether lights or no lights, that's
all that matters. If some do fly at night, we'll soon find out what can
be accomplished by doing so. If I don't succeed at gaining the highest
OLC point total simply because I don't fly at night, I'll just have to
live with it.

One of the values of OLC is that we can all see what is possible -- what
is being done -- in other regions, in other gliders, and by other
pilots, and compare this with our own accomplishments. It is a great
motivator, and learning takes place; more flying is done; and the
overall skill level increases, as does enjoyment.

Should we mandate that one may not circle to the right in a thermal? I
don't see much difference between that and making other rules that would
limit some aspects of soaring simply because there are those who don't
want to do those things themselves.

The OLC is right to require adherence to national flight regulations;
the SSA must conform to that aspect of OLC as part of its agreement with
the organizers and to fulfill its duty to its membership and to the
aviation system in the United States. The best methods may be debatable
but not the necessity. There is no alternative.


Jack

Mike Schumann wrote:
I suspect that the chance of loosing lift in a glider is significantly
higher than loosing an engine. I personally do not think it is a good idea
to fly at night in a single engine power plane unless you have a full moon
and are over very favorable terrain.

In a typical 15M glider, if you can climb to 17,900 ft MSL an hour
before sunset (which is not uncommon in the western US), what time will
you land if you glide at best L/D to your home airport at 5000 ft MSL?

588 wrote:
Marc Ramsey wrote:


...they don't have to worry that some people sitting around a table
three months later will arbitrarily change the rules on them. With
respect, I wish the same could be said of the SSA.

The SSA hasn't changed the OLC rules. They have added a capability to
examine apparent rule breaking that did not previously exist in the OLC
-- a standard and capability not so different from the process in
contests -- and a standard any responsible organization must maintain.

The contest standards are explicitly written into the contest rules, and
are changed via a somewhat transparent process on a known schedule. The
SSA-OLC standards are bit more murky, particularly when you consider
that the "SSA Position Concerning FAR Violations on Badge, Record, and
OLC Flights" is inconsistent with OLC "US Specific Rules", and both are
inconsistent with certain actions that were apparently taken.

Where's the beef?

This is usenet, who needs beef?

Marc Ramsey wrote:

In a typical 15M glider, if you can climb to 17,900 ft MSL an hour
before sunset (which is not uncommon in the western US), what time will
you land if you glide at best L/D to your home airport at 5000 ft MSL?

More than 1:30 later, or more than 0:30 after sunset.


Jack

Eric Greenwell wrote:

I have a 36 ah battery, so I could add lights without too much trouble,
but I think the OLC would be better if I had to land before sunset.


I propose a limit on battery capacity of 12 ah. And that includes the
9-volt in your EDS.

"Doug Haluza" wrote in message
ups.com...

Obviously, night cross country
in gliders is very dangerous, due to the possibility of an outlanding
in a dark field, so I hope we don't have to wait until someone dies to
address this.


I've flown my previous glider, a Stemme S10-VT, in wave at night. A most
beautiful and memorable flight. Fields? Dangerous? I stayed within easy
gliding distance of airports with pilot controlled lighting. The Stemme was
equipped with the required position and anit-collision (strobe) lights.

bumper

OK, here's a video of flying aerobatics at night, below
1500' in a multi-engine turbine glider. No multi-engine
ticket, no type rating, position lights off, and wingtips
on fire...legally! Should have logged it on OLC just
to stir the pot a bit ;o)

low resolution:
http://www.silentwingsairshows.com/video/nightshow.wmv




At 06:24 13 September 2006, Bumper wrote:

'Doug Haluza' wrote in message
oups.com...

Obviously, night cross country
in gliders is very dangerous, due to the possibility
of an outlanding
in a dark field, so I hope we don't have to wait until
someone dies to
address this.


I've flown my previous glider, a Stemme S10-VT, in
wave at night. A most
beautiful and memorable flight. Fields? Dangerous?
I stayed within easy
gliding distance of airports with pilot controlled
lighting. The Stemme was
equipped with the required position and anit-collision
(strobe) lights.

bumper