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The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 10th 09, 05:22 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
mike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 43
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

StrategyPage.com
December 2, 2009

The Melting Deck Plates Muddle

by James Dunnigan

Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the
MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the
deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough
temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the
understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the
new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter.
So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative
solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that
the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes
of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.)

The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.

Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.
Ads
  #2  
Old December 10th 09, 06:23 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Malcom \Mal\ Reynolds
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

In article
[email protected]
1g2000yqn.googlegroups.com,
Mike wrote:

StrategyPage.com
December 2, 2009

The Melting Deck Plates Muddle

by James Dunnigan

Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the
MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the
deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough
temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the
understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the
new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter.
So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative
solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that
the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes
of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.)

The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.

Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.


Use what NASA uses for the shuttle?
Wouldn't cost that much at all
  #3  
Old December 10th 09, 06:42 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
David E. Powell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 168
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

On Dec 9, 11:22*pm, Mike wrote:
StrategyPage.com
December 2, 2009

The Melting Deck Plates Muddle

by James Dunnigan

Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the
MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the
deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough
temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the
understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the
new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter.
So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative
solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that
the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes
of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.)

The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.

Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.


Make a designated VTOL area and add shuttle style tiles there.
  #4  
Old December 10th 09, 08:23 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Dan[_12_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 451
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

David E. Powell wrote:
On Dec 9, 11:22 pm, Mike wrote:
StrategyPage.com
December 2, 2009

The Melting Deck Plates Muddle

by James Dunnigan

Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the
MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the
deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough
temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the
understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the
new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter.
So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative
solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that
the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes
of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.)

The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.

Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.


Make a designated VTOL area and add shuttle style tiles there.


It wouldn't stand up to mechanical abuse. While the tiles will
withstand heat they would crumble under the weight of taxiing aircraft
and deck vehicles.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
  #5  
Old December 10th 09, 08:24 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
guy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 44
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

On 10 Dec, 04:22, Mike wrote:
StrategyPage.com
December 2, 2009

The Melting Deck Plates Muddle

by James Dunnigan

Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the
MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the
deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough
temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the
understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the
new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter.
So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative
solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that
the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes
of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.)

The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.

Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.


How did they manage with the AV8/Harrier then?

Guy
  #6  
Old December 10th 09, 08:52 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
dott.Piergiorgio
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 56
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

guy ha scritto:

Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.


How did they manage with the AV8/Harrier then?


I second the question and point that V-22 & F-35B's heat discharge is
from exhaust gas discharge and/or propeller (IF I grokked well, the 35B
has a sort of vertical propeller contraption) when the harrier's heat
discharge are from jet vanes so at least on paper, Harrier's vertical
exhaust is more hot than V-22...

Best regards from Italy.
Dott. Piergiorgio.
  #7  
Old December 10th 09, 10:50 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
BlackBeard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 79
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

On Dec 9, 11:52*pm, "dott.Piergiorgio"
wrote:
guy ha scritto:

Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.


How did *they manage with the AV8/Harrier then?


I second the question and point that V-22 & F-35B's heat discharge is
from exhaust gas discharge and/or propeller (IF I grokked well, the 35B
has a sort of vertical propeller contraption) when the harrier's heat
discharge are *from jet vanes so at least on paper, Harrier's vertical
exhaust is more hot than V-22...

Best regards from Italy.
Dott. Piergiorgio.


As for the 35B, yes it uses a central fan device for vertical TO/L,
but it also has an exhaust tail that rotates to 90 degrees down. So
there are two forces working to lift it. I spent a week or so shooting
both.
As for the V-22, the solution, like the Harrier might be to limit TO/
L to rolling approach/landing. With both platforms direct impingement
is enough to cause damage.

BB
  #8  
Old December 10th 09, 11:57 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Jack Linthicum
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 301
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

On Dec 10, 4:50*am, BlackBeard wrote:
On Dec 9, 11:52*pm, "dott.Piergiorgio"



wrote:
guy ha scritto:


Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.


How did *they manage with the AV8/Harrier then?


I second the question and point that V-22 & F-35B's heat discharge is
from exhaust gas discharge and/or propeller (IF I grokked well, the 35B
has a sort of vertical propeller contraption) when the harrier's heat
discharge are *from jet vanes so at least on paper, Harrier's vertical
exhaust is more hot than V-22...


Best regards from Italy.
Dott. Piergiorgio.


As for the 35B, yes it uses a central fan device for vertical TO/L,
but it also has an exhaust tail that rotates to 90 degrees down. So
there are two forces working to lift it. I spent a week or so shooting
both.
*As for the V-22, the solution, like the Harrier might be to limit TO/
L to rolling approach/landing. *With both platforms direct impingement
is enough to cause damage.

BB


Or use the rocket launch technique and spray water across the take-off
area.
  #9  
Old December 10th 09, 12:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
guy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 44
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....

On 10 Dec, 10:57, Jack Linthicum wrote:
On Dec 10, 4:50*am, BlackBeard wrote:





On Dec 9, 11:52*pm, "dott.Piergiorgio"


wrote:
guy ha scritto:


Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.


How did *they manage with the AV8/Harrier then?


I second the question and point that V-22 & F-35B's heat discharge is
from exhaust gas discharge and/or propeller (IF I grokked well, the 35B
has a sort of vertical propeller contraption) when the harrier's heat
discharge are *from jet vanes so at least on paper, Harrier's vertical
exhaust is more hot than V-22...


Best regards from Italy.
Dott. Piergiorgio.


As for the 35B, yes it uses a central fan device for vertical TO/L,
but it also has an exhaust tail that rotates to 90 degrees down. So
there are two forces working to lift it. I spent a week or so shooting
both.
*As for the V-22, the solution, like the Harrier might be to limit TO/
L to rolling approach/landing. *With both platforms direct impingement
is enough to cause damage.


BB


Or use the rocket launch technique and spray water across the take-off
area.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Can the V-22 not do at least a partial rolling(STOL) take off?

Guy
  #10  
Old December 10th 09, 12:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Roger Conroy[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....


"Dan" wrote in message
...
David E. Powell wrote:
On Dec 9, 11:22 pm, Mike wrote:
StrategyPage.com
December 2, 2009

The Melting Deck Plates Muddle

by James Dunnigan

Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the
MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the
deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough
temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the
understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the
new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter.
So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative
solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that
the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes
of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.)

The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive
modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks,
both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs.
This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as
the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long
development of either aircraft.

Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts
of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you
compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can
easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more
recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a
real problem.


Make a designated VTOL area and add shuttle style tiles there.


It wouldn't stand up to mechanical abuse. While the tiles will withstand
heat they would crumble under the weight of taxiing aircraft and deck
vehicles.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


Every LHD comes with an unlimited supply of water that can be used for
cooling.
Pump the water into a double skinned section of the deck (analogous to a
"wet wing" aircraft fuel tank) designated for use by the problematic
aircraft.
Cooling water directly on the deck surface will cause other problems - steam
and hot spray getting blasted in all directions is not a good idea.


 




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