Slow Flight

On Sep 9, 12:19 pm, wrote:

In the last few
hrs leading to my PPL, I had no trouble flying very high nose up with
the stall horn blaring and the power up very high and not losing an
inch of altitude.

Did you pull the nose up a little more to get the stall in that
situation? That's where it can get interesting. Departure stall. A 150
does it real well. Better be prepared for spin recovery.

Dan

Did you pull the nose up a little more to get the stall in that
situation? That's where it can get interesting. Departure stall. A 150
does it real well. Better be prepared for spin recovery.

Yes, as part of stall practice I did a few different types including
the departure stall and the approach to landing stall which I found to
be more instructive because the nose is pointed down or level with the
horizon when it happens.But on many occasions the exercise was just to
fly at minimum controllable airspeed and turn using very shallow banks
which I find to be just as instructive as doing stalls.
I don't think of stalls as being difficult or dangerous as I once used
to when I first started training.

On Sep 9, 5:24 am, Kevin Clarke wrote:
Wow, is that well put! That explains it. I've always wondered why it was
never an intellectually and emotionally disconnected event like driving
a car. You have to be ON it. The whole time. So I'm supposed to feel
that way when I'm flying? Cool, I thought there was something wrong that
I had to overcome. Thanks Dudley.


Right, except that you shouldn't lose that level of concentration
while
driving. Driving is usually less demanding than flying, but
either one can kill you very quickly if you don't maintain alertness.
When you're cruising on the highway, one bad move by one of your
fellow drivers can VERY quickly make things go very bad.

On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 11:24:20 -0700, wrote:

Did you pull the nose up a little more to get the stall in that
situation? That's where it can get interesting. Departure stall. A 150
does it real well. Better be prepared for spin recovery.

Seen a Private Pilot PTS lately? As interesting as it is, shouldn't
a pilot be able to fly to at least PTS (the minimum) standards?

"C. TASK: POWER-ON STALLS (ASEL and ASES)

NOTE: In some high performance airplanes, the power setting may have
to
be reduced below the practical test standards guideline power setting
to
prevent excessively high pitch attitudes (greater than 30° nose up).

REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, AC 61-67; POH/AFM.

Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to power-on stalls.
2. Selects an entry altitude that allows the task to be completed no
lower than 1,500 feet (460 meters) AGL.
3. Establishes the takeoff or departure configuration. Sets power to
no
less than 65 percent available power.
4. Transitions smoothly from the takeoff or departure attitude to the
pitch attitude that will induce a stall.
5. Maintains a specified heading, ±10°, in straight flight; maintains
a
specified angle of bank not to exceed 20°, ±10°, in turning flight,
while inducing the stall.
6. Recognizes and recovers promptly after the stall occurs by
simultaneously reducing the angle of attack, increasing power as
appropriate, and leveling the wings to return to a straight-and-level
flight attitude with a minimum loss of altitude appropriate for the
airplane.
7. Retracts the flaps to the recommended setting; retracts the landing
gear if retractable, after a positive rate of climb is established.
8. Accelerates to VX or VY speed before the final flap retraction;
returns
to the altitude, heading, and airspeed specified by the examiner."

The whole shebag is he
http://www.faa.gov/education_research/testing/airmen/test_standards/pilot/media/FAA-S-8081-14A.pdf

Shirl wrote:
"Roger (K8RI)" wrote:
In skating you can get badly hurt not knowing the limits.
In flying you can get killed.

Shirl:
Coincidentally, I was a figure skating instructor--I know what you're
saying, [snip]

Dudley Henriques:
Unbelievable! I was a Delaware Maryland State and Eastern Regional Speed
Skating Champion (RSROA 1955) Skated Free Style and Dance as well :-))

Pretty cool!
I remember joking about the similarities between skating and flying with
my CFIG. One of the ways, thinking about how, with any of the big jumps
-- axel or any of the doubles or better -- you better be prepared to go
for it 100% or you're probably going to get hurt...that is, you can't
"kinda" do it and get away with it more than a couple of times. Not to
mention all the jokes about landings and spins!

I was in the SF Bay Area. We had a group of speed skaters that rented
our rink Sunday nights. Of course, some of us were there most Sunday
nights watching -- THAT was cool but surely seemed *a lot* more
dangerous than anything we did on figure skates (maybe it was just fear
of the unknown!).
;-)
That's funny. Roger and I have been friends for years and I never knew
he was into skating. All 3 of us being involved in some way is interesting.
Roger's analogy using skating is fairly accurate. I've used it myself on
occasion with students through the years.
As an aside, our roller speed skating was almost like your short track
racing only slower :-)
I'm wondering since you were into figure skating whether or not you ever
ran into Elvin Griffin? Elvin and I grew up together and actually
competed against each other in speed skating when we were boys. I was a
bit faster than Elvin, but never his match in dance or free style. He
went pro and taught over in new Jersey training a few champions in the
process.
Just a shot. Thought you might have run into him in your travels. He
died last year unfortunately. Skating lost a fine pro and I lost a
boyhood friend.
Anyway, about the Axel and 100%; you're exactly right. I always
considered all jumps, especially doubles (Axels are of course a 3
revolution jump for the double) to be a conditioned memory process. Your
mind equates the rotation against the time and throws the signal at you
to break the rotation at the exact instant required for the landing.
This is why you need constant practice, so the mind doesn't "forget"
this timing.
Some aerobatics require the same timing sense; multiple snaps, the
gyroscopic maneuvers, spins especially.
It's interesting how one thing can be used to profile another in flying.
:-)


--
Dudley Henriques

On Sep 9, 10:57 am, wrote:
On Sep 8, 9:57 pm, "Roger (K8RI)" wrote:





On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 16:10:21 -0700, Andrew Sarangan

wrote:
Slow flight is a skill. Crosswind landing is a skill. Exposure to long
trips and making difficult decisions under varying weather conditions
is experience. The right combination of skill and experience is what
makes a pilot "mature" and safe.

I agree with that assessment to a point.

It works IF they have the judgmental ability make use of that skill
and experience. I've seen several pilots lose that ability and I've
seen some that never had it and even with over a 100 hours of training
were never going to be safe.

Roger (K8RI)

Yeah. The old saying, "Attitude is Everything" applies here. I have
known pilots with skill and experience that were unsafe. They have too
much of one or more of the fatal attitudes: Machoism, Invincibility,
Anti-Authority, Resignation, or Impulsiveness. All of these things are
present in varying degrees in all of us, and some pilots have one or
more in spades. There's trouble on the way for those folks.
There's a psychological test to determine where we sit on
these things. We use it in our PPL groundschool to try to wake up the
dangerous ones. They need to know that their attitudes can kill them
regardless of skill or knowledge or experience.

Dan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I was not aware that there was a psychological test for this. Can you
give pointers to where I can get more details?

Dudley Henriques wrote:
I'm wondering since you were into figure skating whether or not you ever
ran into Elvin Griffin? Elvin and I grew up together and actually
competed against each other in speed skating when we were boys. I was a
bit faster than Elvin, but never his match in dance or free style. He
went pro and taught over in new Jersey training a few champions in the
process.

No, can't say I remember ever running into Elvin Griffin. Several great
skaters came out of our rinks in the Bay Area -- Kristi Yamaguchi, Brian
Boitano, Rudy Galindo, Debi Thomas. But to be honest, I was more into
the artistic side of it than the competitive side, though it was
admittedly exciting to be behind-the-scenes during that time.

Anyway, about the Axel and 100%; you're exactly right. I always
considered all jumps, especially doubles (Axels are of course a 3
revolution jump for the double) to be a conditioned memory process. Your
mind equates the rotation against the time and throws the signal at you
to break the rotation at the exact instant required for the landing.
This is why you need constant practice, so the mind doesn't "forget"
this timing.
Some aerobatics require the same timing sense; multiple snaps, the
gyroscopic maneuvers, spins especially.
It's interesting how one thing can be used to profile another in flying.
:-)

That's absolutely true -- we too have discussed the parallels with
flying and skating. Early on, when learning to fly, my CFIG said he
thought I'd do well because athletes have that understanding about
"timing". Ditto for having to do it often to stay proficient, and how
that "timing sense", learned by and programmed into your brain and body,
is the first thing to go when you don't train often enough.

I've also seen a parallel with the attitudes between *some* tailwheel
and tricycle pilots and between freesylers and dancers (some never
acknowledging that even though there are no jumps and spins, the
intricate, close and fast footwork in the dancing requires its own high
level of skill/timing/discipline).

And then there's the discipline parallel -- it isn't easy, you don't
learn it overnight, you never *stop* learning more, and there are few
shortcuts that don't come back to bite you.

Lastly, having learned to fly in gliders, there is an artistic element
to thermaling, maybe like your aerobatics. While the science may be the
same, if you look close enough, everyone has a "style". I remember
commenting that after watching from the ground for so long, even if the
gliders were too high to tell one from the other, I could often tell who
was who based on observations about their individual styles. Glider
aerobatics is *so much* like a graceful ballet in the sky, though some
of the guys cringe at that analogy.

Thanks for sharing that about the skating, you two. I knew there had to
be others who shared the two interests!

On Sep 9, 9:40 pm, Andrew Sarangan wrote:
On Sep 9, 10:57 am, wrote:



On Sep 8, 9:57 pm, "Roger (K8RI)" wrote:

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 16:10:21 -0700, Andrew Sarangan

wrote:
Slow flight is a skill. Crosswind landing is a skill. Exposure to long
trips and making difficult decisions under varying weather conditions
is experience. The right combination of skill and experience is what
makes a pilot "mature" and safe.

I agree with that assessment to a point.

It works IF they have the judgmental ability make use of that skill
and experience. I've seen several pilots lose that ability and I've
seen some that never had it and even with over a 100 hours of training
were never going to be safe.

Roger (K8RI)

Yeah. The old saying, "Attitude is Everything" applies here. I have
known pilots with skill and experience that were unsafe. They have too
much of one or more of the fatal attitudes: Machoism, Invincibility,
Anti-Authority, Resignation, or Impulsiveness. All of these things are
present in varying degrees in all of us, and some pilots have one or
more in spades. There's trouble on the way for those folks.
There's a psychological test to determine where we sit on
these things. We use it in our PPL groundschool to try to wake up the
dangerous ones. They need to know that their attitudes can kill them
regardless of skill or knowledge or experience.

Dan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was not aware that there was a psychological test for this. Can you
give pointers to where I can get more details?

I'll see if I can find it on the 'net somewhere. It
exists as paper here in the office, but I think it's copyrighted. Lots
of folks are interested in this sort of thing (they recognize the
traits) and if I knew where to find it they'd all be pleased.

Dan

On Sep 10, 6:54 am, wrote:
On Sep 9, 9:40 pm, Andrew Sarangan wrote:



On Sep 9, 10:57 am, wrote:

On Sep 8, 9:57 pm, "Roger (K8RI)" wrote:

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 16:10:21 -0700, Andrew Sarangan

wrote:
Slow flight is a skill. Crosswind landing is a skill. Exposure to long
trips and making difficult decisions under varying weather conditions
is experience. The right combination of skill and experience is what
makes a pilot "mature" and safe.

I agree with that assessment to a point.

It works IF they have the judgmental ability make use of that skill
and experience. I've seen several pilots lose that ability and I've
seen some that never had it and even with over a 100 hours of training
were never going to be safe.

Roger (K8RI)

Yeah. The old saying, "Attitude is Everything" applies here. I have
known pilots with skill and experience that were unsafe. They have too
much of one or more of the fatal attitudes: Machoism, Invincibility,
Anti-Authority, Resignation, or Impulsiveness. All of these things are
present in varying degrees in all of us, and some pilots have one or
more in spades. There's trouble on the way for those folks.
There's a psychological test to determine where we sit on
these things. We use it in our PPL groundschool to try to wake up the
dangerous ones. They need to know that their attitudes can kill them
regardless of skill or knowledge or experience.

Dan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was not aware that there was a psychological test for this. Can you
give pointers to where I can get more details?

I'll see if I can find it on the 'net somewhere. It
exists as paper here in the office, but I think it's copyrighted. Lots
of folks are interested in this sort of thing (they recognize the
traits) and if I knew where to find it they'd all be pleased.

Dan

Found one, but it applies to helicopter pilots. You need to
know a little about 'copters. I found another for airplane pilots but
you need a password (which probably means it costs). I want to go
flying right now but if you Google the five words Invulnerability (I
mistakenly called it Invincibility), Macho, Impulsive, Resignation and
Anti-Authority, all together, you'll get some hits.

Helicopters:
http://helicopterflight.net/Helicopt...titude%202.pdf

Dan

On Sep 8, 2:03 pm, Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
There is little doubt in my mind that the ability to do slow flight at
the very edge of stall speed will do more to prevent accidents than
1000 hours of cruise speed flight. Is there anyone here who is
proficient that lands their aircraft more than 10kts above stall
speed?
...

In my opinion, the pilot who is comfortable throughout the entire
speed range of their aircraft is a properly trained pilot and one who
will not get into an inadvertant stall, or spin.
What are your thoughts?

Other then the obvious objections (expressed here by many others)
regarding navigation skills ,and calm, ordered responses to
emergencies, as well as interpreting and dealing with weather both
before and during flight, I think you have identified a skill that
needs to be driven home and repeated again and again with ab initio
students until they are comfortable handling the aircraft in any
configuration in the slow-flight regime, and, indeed, transitioning
between different configurations while in slow flight, as well as
handling turns, climbs descents, and simulated "approaches" while in
slow flight. (They should get to enjoy it so much that they get in
the habit of practicing it themselves as often as possible after
certification!)

It is such an important concept (the backside of the power curve and
what it really means ... try explaining this only once or twice to a
typical driver of a car ... I usually only get confused looks even
after sketching it out on paper) that no student (no doubt most used
to driving a car where one power equals one speed on a flat driving
surface) should be considered proficient at slow flight until they can
not only DO it but also sketch their aircrafts power curve and explain
it to their instructor, identifying all the important point, as well
as explaining how it is that a range of power settings correspond to
more than one airspeed on the curve.

Anyway ... one small thing that relates to slow flight that I found
improved my approaches in early training immediately and considerably
was the realization that for a given power setting and rate of descent
(in feet per minute ), the airspeed would be the same every single
time. This allowed me to have a stable approach set up very quickly
after turning base and resulted in instantly noticeably better
approaches and landings on the next lesson after I learned this (my
instructor at the time noticed the improvement immediately,
unfortunately it wasn't him that taught me this fact ... I found it on
a website produced by another flight instructor ... it was a great
site, can't remember its URL now). The airspeed that I aimed for was
usually a few knots above slow flight (I aimed for approach speed for
short field landing, plus a few knots if it was a little windy or
gusty) and of course there was descent involved (about 500 fpm in the
172SP was typical).

Long story short ... slow flight training made me comfortable with
reducing the power considerably, accurately, and consistently and
confidently (to about 1000 - 1300 RPM initially depending on the
headwind, again 172SP) when turning base (not just slowly stepping the
power and speed down, which consumed too much time on base), quickly
and confidently aiming for an approach speed close to a "performance"
landing approach speed every time, and with the speed (172 SP - about
61 - 65 KIAS) and descent rate (initially aiming for 500 fpm) stable
and trimmed out, all that was required to attend to was the drift, any
shear on descent, and staying on a good approach slope visually, while
occasionally glancing at the airspeed to ensure it wasn't bleeding
off. This usually only required small power adjustments to keep on a
proper the approach slope, and of course with more headwind, more
power on final.

While many other skills (especially navigation, emergency procedures,
and weather assessment) are required to become (and remain) a safe,
confident but circumspect pilot, with respect to consistent and
confident aircraft control, there's nothing like slow flight to hone
one's skills and feel like you are flying the aircraft, and not the
other way around.

JAI PPL-A(SEL)
Canada