Winch Signals

On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 12:45:02 +0000, Del C wrote:

In the UK there are only about 3 commonly available gliding frequencies,
and some gliding clubs are not that far apart. I could well imagine
trying to launch a glider on instructions that come from another club!
Also winch launching (and speed calls) would tie up a frequency that is
often required for other purposes.

Our ground operations are managed on a dedicated frequency - I've never
heard any other traffic on it. No, I don't know what the frequency is
except its almost certainly outside the air band. We have a separate set
of handhelds which are locked to this frequency and don't have a
frequency display or a channel switch. I have no idea how we got the
frequency allocated.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On 12 Apr, 13:45, Del C wrote:

In the UK there are only about 3 commonly available gliding frequencies,
and some gliding clubs are not that far apart. I could well imagine trying
to launch a glider on instructions that come from another club! Also winch
launching (and speed calls) would tie up a frequency that is often
required for other purposes.

No need to use an airband frequency for the job.

Land lines have been tried in the UK, but it has been reported that they
were chewed through by rats, rabbits, sheep and *other assorted critters.
even when buried in the ground. And yes I know that the Germans have to
use this system by the decree of the LBA. How do they avoid critter
damage?

As far as I know, my current club hasn't had any significant problems
with this. Mind you, I think the telephone cable may be proper
armoured stuff.

Ian

Our ground operations are managed on a dedicated frequency - I've never
heard any other traffic on it. No, I don't know what the frequency is
except its almost certainly outside the air band. We have a separate set
of handhelds which are locked to this frequency and don't have a
frequency display or a channel switch. I have no idea how we got the
frequency allocated.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Martin,

This sounds like a common set of commercial walkie talkies, they are
used by businesses all over the world as comms in hotels, resorts,
Security personnel, construction sites, and by IT personnel stringing
cable, etc. Only the person that set them up to start with knows the
freq or channel they're on, which can be one of a great many bands
dedicated to this commercial service. The providers of this service
normally advise the buyer which band/frequency is not used in a
specific area.

This sounds like an excellent use of this service, once you're away
from city areas that will possibly have a great many of them being
used throughout the day.


I've been following this thread with great interest since our club,
AGCSC has been re-invigorated by the complete overhaul of our 1940's
era Barrage Balloon Winch which now has a large block Chevy V8 engine,
improved drum drive, and Spectra line. Much, much better than the old
steel cables we used before.

Right now we are flying out of Torrey Pines Historic Gliderport in San
Diego, CA under a temporary permit good till the end of April.
Normally we fly out of remote airports in the east county, well away
from anyone else and power traffic.

We use the local Unicom, or CTAF, at these locations, as it is the
best way to inform approaching aircraft of our operations while giving
us excellent control of the launch operations. THIS WILL NOT WORK IN A
BUSY AREA! because of the large amount of traffic found in that
environment.

The pilot uses his radio to announce, "All Ready (type of plane, # of
persons aboard if dual)" to inform the winch driver, who acknowledges
"Ready", to standby for launch, "Take up slack", and then "Go, Go,
Go!," for starting the launch, at this point the winch driver
"Listens' for the PIC to inform him if Too Slow, Too Fast, or give him
AirSpeed of Plane if the PIC wishes to do it that way. Emergencies are
announced "Stop, Stop, Stop" by either end of the launch.

This system works very well as we only have very experienced pilots
driving the winch. Training as a winch driver is a very big deal, and
involves a lot of instruction and 'Dual" control before an individual
is allowed/qualified to drive the winch. This system works well for us
and has been in use for over 10 years, before we used a flagman on a
"Lookout" stand where he had little feed back from the pilots or winch
drivers, a big improvement for sure.


I think the most important aspect of communications here is the use of
"Standard" phrases throughout the Launch Cycle. This helps to keep it
very clear, and confusion to a minimum. While I find some of the above
phrases 'Quaint' to say the least, "All Out" means the end of the
cable to me!, as long as they are understood by all parties and
included in the training for PIC, Flight Marshall, and Winch Driver it
will work properly.


Thanks again to everyone for all the great information on Winch Ops,
it's been very helpful,

Wayne

We do actually use PMR radios to inform the winch driver what he is
launching next and for sorting out problems, but we normally use lights
for the actual signals, as they are considered more fail safe.

There are exceptions to this rule. For example I winch drive for an
evening instructional group, and due to the East-West orientation of our
main runway, there are occasions when I am looking right into the sunset
and the lights are difficult to see. My club also made the mistake of
mounting the signalling lights behind the upstairs front windows of a
double decker bus, so you can get short periods, when launching to the
east, when the setting sun reflects off the window glass and makes it
impossible to see the lights. Then we may use the PMRs for signalling for
a few launches.

Incidentally, if you do mount signalling lights on a vehicle, it is best
to make them externally mounted, with a matt black background, and not
behind glass, for the reason discussed above.

Derek Copeland


At 16:51 12 April 2009, Free Flight 107 wrote:

Our ground operations are managed on a dedicated frequency - I've
never
heard any other traffic on it. No, I don't know what the frequency is
except its almost certainly outside the air band. We have a separate
set
of handhelds which are locked to this frequency and don't have a
frequency display or a channel switch. I have no idea how we got the
frequency allocated.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Martin,

This sounds like a common set of commercial walkie talkies, they are
used by businesses all over the world as comms in hotels, resorts,
Security personnel, construction sites, and by IT personnel stringing
cable, etc. Only the person that set them up to start with knows the
freq or channel they're on, which can be one of a great many bands
dedicated to this commercial service. The providers of this service
normally advise the buyer which band/frequency is not used in a
specific area.

This sounds like an excellent use of this service, once you're away
from city areas that will possibly have a great many of them being
used throughout the day.


I've been following this thread with great interest since our club,
AGCSC has been re-invigorated by the complete overhaul of our 1940's
era Barrage Balloon Winch which now has a large block Chevy V8 engine,
improved drum drive, and Spectra line. Much, much better than the old
steel cables we used before.

Right now we are flying out of Torrey Pines Historic Gliderport in San
Diego, CA under a temporary permit good till the end of April.
Normally we fly out of remote airports in the east county, well away
from anyone else and power traffic.

We use the local Unicom, or CTAF, at these locations, as it is the
best way to inform approaching aircraft of our operations while giving
us excellent control of the launch operations. THIS WILL NOT WORK IN A
BUSY AREA! because of the large amount of traffic found in that
environment.

The pilot uses his radio to announce, "All Ready (type of plane, # of
persons aboard if dual)" to inform the winch driver, who acknowledges
"Ready", to standby for launch, "Take up slack", and then "Go, Go,
Go!," for starting the launch, at this point the winch driver
"Listens' for the PIC to inform him if Too Slow, Too Fast, or give him
AirSpeed of Plane if the PIC wishes to do it that way. Emergencies are
announced "Stop, Stop, Stop" by either end of the launch.

This system works very well as we only have very experienced pilots
driving the winch. Training as a winch driver is a very big deal, and
involves a lot of instruction and 'Dual" control before an individual
is allowed/qualified to drive the winch. This system works well for us
and has been in use for over 10 years, before we used a flagman on a
"Lookout" stand where he had little feed back from the pilots or winch
drivers, a big improvement for sure.


I think the most important aspect of communications here is the use of
"Standard" phrases throughout the Launch Cycle. This helps to keep it
very clear, and confusion to a minimum. While I find some of the above
phrases 'Quaint' to say the least, "All Out" means the end of the
cable to me!, as long as they are understood by all parties and
included in the training for PIC, Flight Marshall, and Winch Driver it
will work properly.


Thanks again to everyone for all the great information on Winch Ops,
it's been very helpful,

Wayne

On 12 Apr, 20:45, Del C wrote:
We do actually use PMR radios to inform the winch driver what he is
launching next and for sorting out problems, but we normally use lights
for the actual signals, as they are considered more fail safe.

If your lights fail, you cannot give a stop signal. That's not fail
safe!

Were I designing a signalling system from scratch I would (a) use
wires if possible and (b) ensure that a link failure automatically
gave the driver a "stop".

Ian

Andreas, I am unaware of anything about a small booklot from Landau.

Nyal

At 00:54 11 April 2009, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 09:16:54 -0700 (PDT), rlovinggood
wrote:

Nyal,

In our club in Germany, if I can remember, there were three commands.

1. Fertig (Ready, the pilot is ready to be launched.)
2. Seil straff (All of the slack is out of the cable)
3. Frei (The glider has cleared the ground)

These commands were relayed to the winch operator via a "field
telephone", the kind where you would turn the little crank to ring the
bell on the other end of the line.

In this club, winch launching was, and probably still is, the primary
way of launching. They do A LOT of winching. I wonder if they have
changed their ways and have different commands now.


No change at all, Ray.

p.s.: Did you already receive a small booklet from Landau?

I don't see why a duplicated (or triplicated as another correspondent
mentioned) lights system should be considered less reliable or fail-safe
than a single PMR or airband transceiver link, or a single telephone
landline. The reason that the UK BGA insists on light signals (or bats) is
the same reason as the German LBA insists on lineline telephones: That is
they are not prone to interference, or calls being blocked out by other
users. Our old Tost winches were quite noisy in the cabs, so you might not
hear a radio call during the launch, but you can see the lights. I have to
admit that the cab our Skylaunch winch is much quieter and more
civilised.

In the unlikely event of a double or triple light failure. we still have
the PMR radios as a back up. The only thing that can sometimes interfere
with light signals is low angle sunlight in certain launch directions, but
this only really affects a tiny minority of launches, first thing in the
morning shortly after sunrise, or just before sunset in the evening.

Derek C


At 20:40 12 April 2009, The Real Doctor wrote:
On 12 Apr, 20:45, Del C wrote:
We do actually use PMR radios to inform the winch driver what he is
launching next and for sorting out problems, but we normally use
lights
for the actual signals, as they are considered more fail safe.

If your lights fail, you cannot give a stop signal. That's not fail
safe!

Were I designing a signalling system from scratch I would (a) use
wires if possible and (b) ensure that a link failure automatically
gave the driver a "stop".

Ian

On 13 Apr, 02:00, Del C wrote:
The reason that the UK BGA insists on light signals (or bats) is
the same reason as the German LBA insists on lineline telephones: That is
they are not prone to interference, or calls being blocked out by other
users.

Since when has the BGA insisted on lights?

Ian

My understanding is that the BGA recommends lights, but with
radio back-up.
As well as being noise independent lights require only one
power source whereas radios require two, one at each end!




At 12:13 13 April 2009, The Real Doctor wrote:
On 13 Apr, 02:00, Del C wrote:
The reason that the UK BGA insists on light signals (or bats)
is
the same reason as the German LBA insists on lineline
telephones: That
is
they are not prone to interference, or calls being blocked
out by other
users.

Since when has the BGA insisted on lights?

Ian

Best wishes

JohnR-K

On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:30:04 +0000, John Roche-Kelly wrote:

My understanding is that the BGA recommends lights, but with radio
back-up.
As well as being noise independent lights require only one power source
whereas radios require two, one at each end!

Same goes for lights: you need them on the winch too. They provide a back
channel, let people on the field know when the cables are live, and on
some fields are needed to control airfield traffic.

I'd be MOST unhappy to be at a club that didn't have lights on the winch.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |