Pre-buy Inspection

Haggle all you want, but stop after you've agreed on a price.

"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...
So what I hear you saying is that you won't have a clear conscience if
you haggle for the best price?

When you sober up and read the posts you would discover that the plane
has just come out of an annual. JK

Lynne Miller wrote:

Truthfully, a good pre-buy is actually an annual inspection. I would
worry about a $500 pre-buy. Unless you truly tear into the aircraft,
you don't know what you're getting into. If it's at all close by,
perhaps you could work out a deal to somehow pro-rate the annual
inspection, and just get it done. That way, you will at least have the
peace of mind to know exactly the shape the aircraft is in.

As an aside, I am quite drunk right now. :-) It's fun to hang out at
home, drink beers, and just relax.

Lynne

Jon Kraus wrote in message . ..

My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
just finished up an annual inspection on it.

My IFR instructor has owned Mooneys in the past and even had the M20C
for years. He suggested that we fly the plane to Byerly Aviation in
Peoria IL (a little over an hour flight from Indianapolis) and have them
do the pre-buy. He said it would probably cost in the $500.00 range. My
partner and I think it is a good idea too. We are both buying our first
plane and think the money would be well spent.

One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances. Of course we
would hate to buy something that needed immediate major engine work. The
plane has not flown much for the past 2 years so I am wondering if after
flying the thing a while if the compression might come back some
(probably wishful thinking I know).

I am interested in opinions or experiences in first plane purchases.
Experience with Byerly Aviation. Or comments on the engine situation I
described. Thanks!!

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student aircraft purchaser

Doug - Thanks for your remarks. The engine has 420 hours SMOH which
included a new camshaft, new bearings ect. I'm wondering if the main
issue (with the low compression) is that the 420 hours has been over 6
years (and the last year it hardly flew at all). IMHO the plane has not
been flown enough. Like I said I'm an no expert but wouldn't you think
that 70 hours a year is a little light on usage? Could this be the
cause of the low compression on the cylinder? Maybe and mabe not. I have
a mechanical background but it has been years since I turned a wrench
but if I remember about compression checks the procedure was to take a
reading and if it was low then you squirt oil into the low cylinder (wet
compression check)and if the reading came up then the rings were either
worn or sticking. This is because the oil would temporarily seal the
rings but do nothing to seal up the valves. If the reading stayed the
same then you would suspect a valve problem. Please don't flame me too
bad on this because it has ben a while since I've done any engine work.
Although I suspect I'll be doing some owner assisted things with
whatever plane I end up. :-)

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student airplane purchaser


Doug wrote:

What is the TT on the engine, and what is the SMOH on the engine? If
either are high, you may be in for a total rebuild. ONE cylinder with
62 would concern me. If it's near TBO, you're probably in for a
rebuild. Typically as an engine ages, compression goes down and oil
usage goes up. Also check to see if the last rebuild included
crankshaft bearings, was it a total rebuild or just a top? Look for
oil in the front of the engine, this is evidence of main bearings
going out. A recently rebuilt engine can have cylinder replacements be
successful, but a good engine shouldn't need them. Like I said, if
it's near TBO, you're probably in for a rebuild, and if the last
rebuild wasn't a major, your probably going to have to major it. Its
not worth it to top a high time engine, IMO.

You haven't made a deal yet, so you can do whatever you want at this
point. Nothing wrong with buying knowing it will need a rebuild so
long as the buy price reflects this. You might get lucky and get 500
more hours, doing nothing.

If the compressions were all good, and no oil usage, you usually can
count on 500 more hours, REGARDLESS of the time on the engine.
Usually, not always. And nothing unusual about running it past TBO.
These Lycomings typically will run well past TBO.

Jon Kraus wrote in message . ..

My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
just finished up an annual inspection on it.

My IFR instructor has owned Mooneys in the past and even had the M20C
for years. He suggested that we fly the plane to Byerly Aviation in
Peoria IL (a little over an hour flight from Indianapolis) and have them
do the pre-buy. He said it would probably cost in the $500.00 range. My
partner and I think it is a good idea too. We are both buying our first
plane and think the money would be well spent.

One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances. Of course we
would hate to buy something that needed immediate major engine work. The
plane has not flown much for the past 2 years so I am wondering if after
flying the thing a while if the compression might come back some
(probably wishful thinking I know).

I am interested in opinions or experiences in first plane purchases.
Experience with Byerly Aviation. Or comments on the engine situation I
described. Thanks!!

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student aircraft purchaser

Maybe you should only post when sober then... The original post states
"They just finished up an annual inspection on it." :-)


Lynne Miller wrote:

Truthfully, a good pre-buy is actually an annual inspection. I would
worry about a $500 pre-buy. Unless you truly tear into the aircraft,
you don't know what you're getting into. If it's at all close by,
perhaps you could work out a deal to somehow pro-rate the annual
inspection, and just get it done. That way, you will at least have the
peace of mind to know exactly the shape the aircraft is in.

As an aside, I am quite drunk right now. :-) It's fun to hang out at
home, drink beers, and just relax.

Lynne

Jon Kraus wrote in message . ..

My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
just finished up an annual inspection on it.

My IFR instructor has owned Mooneys in the past and even had the M20C
for years. He suggested that we fly the plane to Byerly Aviation in
Peoria IL (a little over an hour flight from Indianapolis) and have them
do the pre-buy. He said it would probably cost in the $500.00 range. My
partner and I think it is a good idea too. We are both buying our first
plane and think the money would be well spent.

One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances. Of course we
would hate to buy something that needed immediate major engine work. The
plane has not flown much for the past 2 years so I am wondering if after
flying the thing a while if the compression might come back some
(probably wishful thinking I know).

I am interested in opinions or experiences in first plane purchases.
Experience with Byerly Aviation. Or comments on the engine situation I
described. Thanks!!

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student aircraft purchaser

"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...
When you sober up and read the posts you would discover that the plane
has just come out of an annual. JK

IMHO, an annual inspection done (paid for) by the seller is worthless with
respect to pre-buy inspection.

I base this on personal experience, having bought a plane that had just had
an annual inspection done, and yet which still had significant problems,
including safety issues.

When buying an airplane, you *cannot* delegate ANY inspection of the
aircraft to the seller or anyone hired by the seller. The only way to know
for sure the condition of the airplane is to inspect it yourself or have
someone working for you inspect it. If you decide that an inspection the
depth of an annual inspection is warranted, then so be it...even if the
airplane has just had an annual inspection by someone else, you'll have to
pay someone to do it all over again.

The fact that the plane in question here has just come out of its annual
inspection is meaningless to the buyer.

Pete

I agree with you 100%. Matter of fact the seller just informed my FBO
that he will not allow the plane to inspected by Byerly Aviation who is
a well respected Mooney shop. I think we are going to pass on this one.

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student airplane purchaser

Peter Duniho wrote:
"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...

When you sober up and read the posts you would discover that the plane
has just come out of an annual. JK


IMHO, an annual inspection done (paid for) by the seller is worthless with
respect to pre-buy inspection.

I base this on personal experience, having bought a plane that had just had
an annual inspection done, and yet which still had significant problems,
including safety issues.

When buying an airplane, you *cannot* delegate ANY inspection of the
aircraft to the seller or anyone hired by the seller. The only way to know
for sure the condition of the airplane is to inspect it yourself or have
someone working for you inspect it. If you decide that an inspection the
depth of an annual inspection is warranted, then so be it...even if the
airplane has just had an annual inspection by someone else, you'll have to
pay someone to do it all over again.

The fact that the plane in question here has just come out of its annual
inspection is meaningless to the buyer.

Pete

Lynne Miller wrote:

Truthfully, a good pre-buy is actually an annual inspection. I would
worry about a $500 pre-buy.

I wouldn't. My last annual inspection cost less than $500.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

Jon Kraus wrote:

When you sober up and read the posts you would discover that the plane
has just come out of an annual.

You still want to have an inspection performed to the standards of an annual
inspection by a mechanic you trust. Sellers have been known to obtain a
"pencil-whipped" annual when they know they intend to sell the plane in the near
future.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

That's about the furthest thing from the truth I've ever seen in these
newsgroups. A prebuy is a DOZEN times harder than an annual inspection. All an
annual inspection tells you is that nothing on the airplane is worn past service
limits at the time of the inspection.

An annual doesn't tell you that the oil hasn't been changed for two hundred
hours. It doesn't tell you that the tires are down to within a hundredth of an
inch of wear limits. It doesn't tell you that the brakes have less than 10%
service life. It doesn't tell you that the battery has about two tugs left in
it before pooping out completely. Shall I go on?

I don't do prebuys for two reasons. One is that a good prebuy takes me the
better part of 25 hours to do, and I can't charge that kind of money to somebody
who may or may not be the owner of that airplane someday. Two is that I can
actually miss something, by simple oversight or by opinion, that the new owner
will rip me a new one when they have to have that item repaired or replaced.

It just ain't worth it. And I sure as HELL wouldn't consider doing one for
somebody with Kraus' attitude.

Jim



(Lynne Miller)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-Truthfully, a good pre-buy is actually an annual inspection.


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

Jim,
ROFLMFAO.. You don't even know me so your comment about my attitude is
laughable. As far as the pre-buy inspection goes the folks that do them
tell me that they take not anywhere near 25 hours to do. Maybe you are
ripping people off (25 + hours is ridiculous) and that is why you aren't
getting any pre-buy business. But then again I don't know you either so
who's to say right? :-)

I would think that a shop that deals with a specific aircraft day in and
day out would be able to point to the "problem" (expensive) areas of the
aircraft in a reasonable amount of time. At least that is what they tell
me. I think Byerly is a reputable firm and if they told me they can do
it in 8 hours I believe them. It is of course your prerogative to
disagree. Huggs and Kisses

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student airplane purchaser

Jim Weir wrote:
That's about the furthest thing from the truth I've ever seen in these
newsgroups. A prebuy is a DOZEN times harder than an annual inspection. All an
annual inspection tells you is that nothing on the airplane is worn past service
limits at the time of the inspection.

An annual doesn't tell you that the oil hasn't been changed for two hundred
hours. It doesn't tell you that the tires are down to within a hundredth of an
inch of wear limits. It doesn't tell you that the brakes have less than 10%
service life. It doesn't tell you that the battery has about two tugs left in
it before pooping out completely. Shall I go on?

I don't do prebuys for two reasons. One is that a good prebuy takes me the
better part of 25 hours to do, and I can't charge that kind of money to somebody
who may or may not be the owner of that airplane someday. Two is that I can
actually miss something, by simple oversight or by opinion, that the new owner
will rip me a new one when they have to have that item repaired or replaced.

It just ain't worth it. And I sure as HELL wouldn't consider doing one for
somebody with Kraus' attitude.

Jim



(Lynne Miller)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-Truthfully, a good pre-buy is actually an annual inspection.


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com