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#21
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USA automated panel-cutting service?
On Sunday, January 31, 2021 at 9:55:27 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 11:22:48 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote: On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 5:31:52 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote: Waterjet will work fine, but will create blisters of delam local to the pierce location. What this means is you pierce in the middle of your 57mm hole and then spiral out to the contour. The problem is piercing the holes for the screws won't work (or risks damage) as the blisters will often be bigger than the hole. You can hand drill them later but they will be all over the place because they are hand drilled. I cut mine on my CNC mill, took about 10 minutes (after all the design and setup). If you strike out elsewhere, I might be talked into it under the right conditions. The issue on a CNC mill is you have to figure out how to hold it, and where the CL is - at least on the panels I've seen they are not very symmetric (and won't match the drawing) so it's hard to guess. What I did to fixture it is make a plywood plug the would sit up in the flange of the panel and hold it off the table. Then drilled holes in the middle of all the cutouts and screwed it to the plywood through those holes. Then ran the program to cut all the shapes and holes. Part way through you have a bunch of additional holes to screw down through. This is the advantage of waterjet or laser - they are essentially no-force machining so fixturing is easy. On a CNC mill or router, you need to nail that sucker down. On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 4:14:36 PM UTC-8, Anonymous wrote: Dave Nadler wrote: On 1/30/2021 5:39 PM, Anonymous wrote: In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing. They’re reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time. They just cut material and ship to you. Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with your favorite fine cutter. Britton Interesting. If you're going to go the template route, why wouldn't you use a thicker material (acrylic?) to make using a router easier? I believe I used what they offered at the time. They possibly have more options now. But agreed in the thought. My panel came out nice so I’m happy. Aside: interesting that I show up as ‘anonymous’ while replying through this NewsTap iPhone app. Will look into it. Other than that I like the newsreader app. Back to the real conversation now, whatever gets the job done and end user is satisfied. Britton If you are an EAA member you can download a free version of Solidworks (if not, it is worth joining because SW is about $5k). You can create a 3D version of your panel. If you want to check interferences you can either create 3D models of the avionics or download these models from sites such as: https://grabcad.com/library?software... tags=avionics You can create an assembly using these models (you will create the model of your panel). From this you can create output files that all CNC shops recognize. Solidworks does have a steep learning curve, but it is worth it. There are numerous online training videos that help a lot. Once proficient at it you can create virtually any kind of part you can think of, either machined out of solid material or made by 3D rendering machines. Tom Another CAD package you can use that is FREE is ONSHAPE (onshape.com/en). It also has a bit of a learning curve (all capable CAD programs do) but for jobs of limited complexity, such as a console, you can use onshape free. Rich L. Rich, I have never heard of Onshape, so I checked it out. Here is a comparison between it and SW: https://www.scan2cad.com/cad/onshape...rks_vs_Onshape The most important thing about Onshape is that the free version requires that all of your parts and designs be public (everything is stored in the cloud, not on your computer). If this is a problem for you you will have to subscribe at a rate of $1,500 per year for the basic version (similar to SW). The have an Enterprise version that they don't list pricing for (you have to request a quote). I can get SW for free with my EAA subscription ($40 per year) and everything is stored on my computer unless I share it: https://www.eaa.org/eaa/eaa-membersh...Ahn PEALw_wcB I did upload a number of Matt's parts successfully to Onshape, but haven't figured out how to upload an assembly yet. In any case, mechanical design CAD software is a real game changer. Once you master the software you can have parts made cheaply with absolutely to machining experience or equipment. Tom |
#22
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USA automated panel-cutting service?
I did my -27 panel in AutoCAD 2D - this was before I taught myself 3D CAD. I measured all the instruments and modeled the size of the enclosures in addition screw holes, faces, etc. Fortunately I didn't have any depth-related issues, but on other gliders you need to know where stuff behind the panel is so that requires 3D as Matt describes.
I used a laser cutter to make acrylic models of the panel - maybe half a dozen with various tweaks. I mounted the instruments double check clearances and wedged the whole thing into the cockpit to make sure I could see and reach things - twiddle knobs without interference from adjacent knobs, etc. Then I laser cut several 1/8" and 1/4" acrylic templates - one thin one with just the instrument bolt holes and a center drill hole in the middle of each instrument face - to start the router bit - and then two templates with the the mount holes plus the instrument holes. This also included 1/16" holes at the corners of any instrument holes that had angled openings (USB plugs [tricky!], circuit breakers, etc. - anything with a radius smaller than the 3/16" template router bit ( https://www.amazon.com/Amana-Tool-Mi.../dp/B010C7W38W ). I started with just the screw hole template and hand marked and drilled maybe four holes so I could bolt the screw hole template to the panel blank and drill the rest of the instrument bolt holes without any drift. I used a drill press for this because it's easy to chew up the acrylic if you do it handheld. Once that was done I bolted the double templates with the holes for the instrument faces on the front and back of the the panel blank to sandwich it flat and give me a guide. I mounted the 3/16 router bit which has an end bearing to follow the template in a router ( https://tinyurl.com/y5l3shz8 ) I got from home depot that could be mounted with the bit pointing up on a router table ( https://tinyurl.com/y5addzct ). I set the bit depth so that the bearing lined up with the thicker template on the inside of the panel blank. This way the panel face-side template can on the router table and you can see the bit following along the template (note that the bolts that hold the face-side template need to be counter-sunk in the acrylic or it won't be flat to slide on the router table. It takes a bit of care to cut all the instrument holes without messing up. I practiced a couple of times on flat 1/16" fiberglass sheet. A key thing to watch out for is if the tiny template bearing seizes. If this happens it will start spinning and will melt the acrylic template at which point you are going to ruin the panel. I always started with a fresh bit and took pauses to see if it was starting to bind. You could probably use a bigger bit to have less probability of failure, but some holes have tight radii so choose your bits wisely. I cut the instruments holes with only a thousandth or two of tolerance for the instruments. If you do this you better be sure to measure the instruments exactly. I ended up having to sand a few openings an extra thousandth or so to get the instrument in. In the end it worked great, though it was a lot of work. If Rex tells you it was a high-quality job that's a compliment. This was before Rex had his laser. If I had to do it again I'd consider just having the folks at Williams do it. It's not the sort of thing that you can easily get done commercially because of all the fiddling and the thinness of the panel. Getting access to a laser cutter also can be tricky. I ultimately bought my own, but they are pricy so you'd really need to have another reason to own one. Hope that helps. Andy Blackburn 9B On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 3:50:01 PM UTC-8, wrote: On 1/30/2021 5:39 PM, Anonymous wrote: In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing.. They’re reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time. They just cut material and ship to you. Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with your favorite fine cutter. Britton Interesting. If you're going to go the template route, why wouldn't you use a thicker material (acrylic?) to make using a router easier? |
#23
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USA automated panel-cutting service?
On Sunday, January 31, 2021 at 8:03:51 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I did my -27 panel in AutoCAD 2D - this was before I taught myself 3D CAD.. I measured all the instruments and modeled the size of the enclosures in addition screw holes, faces, etc. Fortunately I didn't have any depth-related issues, but on other gliders you need to know where stuff behind the panel is so that requires 3D as Matt describes. I used a laser cutter to make acrylic models of the panel - maybe half a dozen with various tweaks. I mounted the instruments double check clearances and wedged the whole thing into the cockpit to make sure I could see and reach things - twiddle knobs without interference from adjacent knobs, etc. Then I laser cut several 1/8" and 1/4" acrylic templates - one thin one with just the instrument bolt holes and a center drill hole in the middle of each instrument face - to start the router bit - and then two templates with the the mount holes plus the instrument holes. This also included 1/16" holes at the corners of any instrument holes that had angled openings (USB plugs [tricky!], circuit breakers, etc. - anything with a radius smaller than the 3/16" template router bit ( https://www.amazon.com/Amana-Tool-Mi.../dp/B010C7W38W ). I started with just the screw hole template and hand marked and drilled maybe four holes so I could bolt the screw hole template to the panel blank and drill the rest of the instrument bolt holes without any drift. I used a drill press for this because it's easy to chew up the acrylic if you do it handheld. Once that was done I bolted the double templates with the holes for the instrument faces on the front and back of the the panel blank to sandwich it flat and give me a guide. I mounted the 3/16 router bit which has an end bearing to follow the template in a router ( https://tinyurl.com/y5l3shz8 ) I got from home depot that could be mounted with the bit pointing up on a router table ( https://tinyurl.com/y5addzct ). I set the bit depth so that the bearing lined up with the thicker template on the inside of the panel blank. This way the panel face-side template can on the router table and you can see the bit following along the template (note that the bolts that hold the face-side template need to be counter-sunk in the acrylic or it won't be flat to slide on the router table. It takes a bit of care to cut all the instrument holes without messing up.. I practiced a couple of times on flat 1/16" fiberglass sheet. A key thing to watch out for is if the tiny template bearing seizes. If this happens it will start spinning and will melt the acrylic template at which point you are going to ruin the panel. I always started with a fresh bit and took pauses to see if it was starting to bind. You could probably use a bigger bit to have less probability of failure, but some holes have tight radii so choose your bits wisely. I cut the instruments holes with only a thousandth or two of tolerance for the instruments. If you do this you better be sure to measure the instruments exactly. I ended up having to sand a few openings an extra thousandth or so to get the instrument in. In the end it worked great, though it was a lot of work. If Rex tells you it was a high-quality job that's a compliment. This was before Rex had his laser. If I had to do it again I'd consider just having the folks at Williams do it. It's not the sort of thing that you can easily get done commercially because of all the fiddling and the thinness of the panel. Getting access to a laser cutter also can be tricky. I ultimately bought my own, but they are pricy so you'd really need to have another reason to own one. Hope that helps. Andy Blackburn 9B On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 3:50:01 PM UTC-8, wrote: On 1/30/2021 5:39 PM, Anonymous wrote: In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing. They’re reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time. They just cut material and ship to you. Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with your favorite fine cutter. Britton Interesting. If you're going to go the template route, why wouldn't you use a thicker material (acrylic?) to make using a router easier? Minor as NOT a machinist...there are conversations of "climbmilling" vs "conviential milling"... |
#24
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USA automated panel-cutting service?
On Sunday, January 31, 2021 at 6:14:26 PM UTC-8, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
On Sunday, January 31, 2021 at 8:03:51 PM UTC-5, wrote: I did my -27 panel in AutoCAD 2D - this was before I taught myself 3D CAD. I measured all the instruments and modeled the size of the enclosures in addition screw holes, faces, etc. Fortunately I didn't have any depth-related issues, but on other gliders you need to know where stuff behind the panel is so that requires 3D as Matt describes. I used a laser cutter to make acrylic models of the panel - maybe half a dozen with various tweaks. I mounted the instruments double check clearances and wedged the whole thing into the cockpit to make sure I could see and reach things - twiddle knobs without interference from adjacent knobs, etc. Then I laser cut several 1/8" and 1/4" acrylic templates - one thin one with just the instrument bolt holes and a center drill hole in the middle of each instrument face - to start the router bit - and then two templates with the the mount holes plus the instrument holes. This also included 1/16" holes at the corners of any instrument holes that had angled openings (USB plugs [tricky!], circuit breakers, etc. - anything with a radius smaller than the 3/16" template router bit ( https://www.amazon.com/Amana-Tool-Mi.../dp/B010C7W38W ). I started with just the screw hole template and hand marked and drilled maybe four holes so I could bolt the screw hole template to the panel blank and drill the rest of the instrument bolt holes without any drift. I used a drill press for this because it's easy to chew up the acrylic if you do it handheld. Once that was done I bolted the double templates with the holes for the instrument faces on the front and back of the the panel blank to sandwich it flat and give me a guide. I mounted the 3/16 router bit which has an end bearing to follow the template in a router ( https://tinyurl.com/y5l3shz8 ) I got from home depot that could be mounted with the bit pointing up on a router table ( https://tinyurl.com/y5addzct ). I set the bit depth so that the bearing lined up with the thicker template on the inside of the panel blank. This way the panel face-side template can on the router table and you can see the bit following along the template (note that the bolts that hold the face-side template need to be counter-sunk in the acrylic or it won't be flat to slide on the router table. It takes a bit of care to cut all the instrument holes without messing up. I practiced a couple of times on flat 1/16" fiberglass sheet. A key thing to watch out for is if the tiny template bearing seizes. If this happens it will start spinning and will melt the acrylic template at which point you are going to ruin the panel. I always started with a fresh bit and took pauses to see if it was starting to bind. You could probably use a bigger bit to have less probability of failure, but some holes have tight radii so choose your bits wisely. I cut the instruments holes with only a thousandth or two of tolerance for the instruments. If you do this you better be sure to measure the instruments exactly. I ended up having to sand a few openings an extra thousandth or so to get the instrument in. In the end it worked great, though it was a lot of work. If Rex tells you it was a high-quality job that's a compliment. This was before Rex had his laser. If I had to do it again I'd consider just having the folks at Williams do it. It's not the sort of thing that you can easily get done commercially because of all the fiddling and the thinness of the panel. Getting access to a laser cutter also can be tricky. I ultimately bought my own, but they are pricy so you'd really need to have another reason to own one. Hope that helps. Andy Blackburn 9B On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 3:50:01 PM UTC-8, wrote: On 1/30/2021 5:39 PM, Anonymous wrote: In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing. They’re reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time. They just cut material and ship to you. Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with your favorite fine cutter. Britton Interesting. If you're going to go the template route, why wouldn't you use a thicker material (acrylic?) to make using a router easier? Minor as NOT a machinist...there are conversations of "climbmilling" vs "conviential milling"... Found this about water jet cutting carbon fiber https://www.elevatedmaterials.com/cu...th-a-waterjet/ |
#25
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USA automated panel-cutting service?
I've done four different panels for my Pegasus as the instruments have been upgraded. All were done with an accurate 2D layout plan showing X-Y coordinates of all instrument holes and screw locations. All were done on a hand cranked milling machine with X-Y digital readouts. Tools used for the holes were typical 135 degree split-point drill bits and 57 and 80 mm hole saws. Some hand finishing was required, like making the cutout for the Kohlsmann adjustment knob on the altimeter. The first three panels were either aluminum or fiberglass with a carbon layer on the face, and the last panel was a 3 mm carbon plate found on the internet for about $80. I've been happy with the results, and have done a couple of other panels for other pilots (ASW-20, Discus). But both of those were done after the owners provided me with the X-Y coordinates and a panel blank. The flange on the ASW-20 panel wasn't a big deal, as I just cut out a backing plate from particle board that held the flange above the milling table and allowed me to clamp the panel down with the typical "dogs" used for normal milling operations. I hesitated to go with the waterjet or laser cutting services because of the delamination and burning issues referenced above. Plus, I kind of enjoyed the challenge. Especially since it all worked out and I got it right on the first try each time. YMMV
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#26
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USA automated panel-cutting service?
I highly recommend a CNC router with an 1/8" burr. Amana Tool makes some nice burrs specifically for composites. Traditional milling bits tend to snag and pull on the fibers.
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#27
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USA automated panel-cutting service?
On Sunday, January 31, 2021 at 4:10:36 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, January 31, 2021 at 9:55:27 AM UTC-8, wrote: On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 11:22:48 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote: On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 5:31:52 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote: Waterjet will work fine, but will create blisters of delam local to the pierce location. What this means is you pierce in the middle of your 57mm hole and then spiral out to the contour. The problem is piercing the holes for the screws won't work (or risks damage) as the blisters will often be bigger than the hole. You can hand drill them later but they will be all over the place because they are hand drilled. I cut mine on my CNC mill, took about 10 minutes (after all the design and setup). If you strike out elsewhere, I might be talked into it under the right conditions. The issue on a CNC mill is you have to figure out how to hold it, and where the CL is - at least on the panels I've seen they are not very symmetric (and won't match the drawing) so it's hard to guess. What I did to fixture it is make a plywood plug the would sit up in the flange of the panel and hold it off the table. Then drilled holes in the middle of all the cutouts and screwed it to the plywood through those holes. Then ran the program to cut all the shapes and holes. Part way through you have a bunch of additional holes to screw down through. This is the advantage of waterjet or laser - they are essentially no-force machining so fixturing is easy. On a CNC mill or router, you need to nail that sucker down. On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 4:14:36 PM UTC-8, Anonymous wrote: Dave Nadler wrote: On 1/30/2021 5:39 PM, Anonymous wrote: In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing. They’re reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time.. They just cut material and ship to you. Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with your favorite fine cutter. Britton Interesting. If you're going to go the template route, why wouldn't you use a thicker material (acrylic?) to make using a router easier? I believe I used what they offered at the time. They possibly have more options now. But agreed in the thought. My panel came out nice so I’m happy. Aside: interesting that I show up as ‘anonymous’ while replying through this NewsTap iPhone app. Will look into it. Other than that I like the newsreader app. Back to the real conversation now, whatever gets the job done and end user is satisfied. Britton If you are an EAA member you can download a free version of Solidworks (if not, it is worth joining because SW is about $5k). You can create a 3D version of your panel. If you want to check interferences you can either create 3D models of the avionics or download these models from sites such as: https://grabcad.com/library?software... tags=avionics You can create an assembly using these models (you will create the model of your panel). From this you can create output files that all CNC shops recognize. Solidworks does have a steep learning curve, but it is worth it. There are numerous online training videos that help a lot. Once proficient at it you can create virtually any kind of part you can think of, either machined out of solid material or made by 3D rendering machines. Tom Another CAD package you can use that is FREE is ONSHAPE (onshape.com/en). It also has a bit of a learning curve (all capable CAD programs do) but for jobs of limited complexity, such as a console, you can use onshape free.. Rich L. Rich, I have never heard of Onshape, so I checked it out. Here is a comparison between it and SW: https://www.scan2cad.com/cad/onshape...rks_vs_Onshape The most important thing about Onshape is that the free version requires that all of your parts and designs be public (everything is stored in the cloud, not on your computer). If this is a problem for you you will have to subscribe at a rate of $1,500 per year for the basic version (similar to SW). The have an Enterprise version that they don't list pricing for (you have to request a quote). I can get SW for free with my EAA subscription ($40 per year) and everything is stored on my computer unless I share it: https://www.eaa.org/eaa/eaa-membersh...Ahn PEALw_wcB I did upload a number of Matt's parts successfully to Onshape, but haven't figured out how to upload an assembly yet. In any case, mechanical design CAD software is a real game changer. Once you master the software you can have parts made cheaply with absolutely to machining experience or equipment. Tom Onshape and SolidWorks are very different in concept. I've used both and both can do very sophisticated work, and both have a significant learning curve. I agree with all your points, but if someone doesn't have access to Solidworks (and the EAA is a very good option) then Onshape is free to try. One plus for Onshape, they have very good tutorials to help getting started. Rich L. |
#28
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USA automated panel-cutting service?
On 1/31/21 9:43 PM, David Shelton wrote:
I highly recommend a CNC router with an 1/8" burr. Amana Tool makes some nice burrs specifically for composites. Traditional milling bits tend to snag and pull on the fibers. I wonder how one of these would do from a CAD file? https://www.rockler.com/shaper-origi...eld-cnc-router Never miss an opportunity to get another cool tool/toy. |
#29
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USA automated panel-cutting service?
On Monday, February 1, 2021 at 8:52:53 AM UTC-6, Stuart Venters wrote:
On 1/31/21 9:43 PM, David Shelton wrote: I highly recommend a CNC router with an 1/8" burr. Amana Tool makes some nice burrs specifically for composites. Traditional milling bits tend to snag and pull on the fibers. I wonder how one of these would do from a CAD file? https://www.rockler.com/shaper-origi...eld-cnc-router Never miss an opportunity to get another cool tool/toy. Oh, that thing is brilliant! Want one! |
#30
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USA automated panel-cutting service?
Stuart Venters wrote on 2/1/2021 6:52 AM:
On 1/31/21 9:43 PM, David Shelton wrote: I highly recommend a CNC router with an 1/8" burr. Amana Tool makes some nice burrs specifically for composites. Traditional milling bits tend to snag and pull on the fibers. I wonder how one of these would do from a CAD file? https://www.rockler.com/shaper-origi...eld-cnc-router Never miss an opportunity to get another cool tool/toy. That is really slick. And, hey, you'd have to buy a router of some kind at some point in your life, so why not this one? It can do panels for side-by-side gliders, too! -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1 |
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