14 Volt Gel Cell?

At 03:12 05 May 2004, Joe Allbritten wrote:
Derrick Steed wrote in message news:...
Sam Fly wrote
Joe,

Why do you want 14 volts...Most radios have a 12 volt
regulator that
drops 14 volts to 12 volts...I for years used 14 volts
only to find out
is was not required. Have used 12 volts with no problems
since...

Sam Fly

Joe Allbritten wrote:
Does anyone know where I can purchase a 14 Volt gel
cell battery. I
know I can wire 2 or more in series to get 14Volt,(12
+ 2 or 6 + 8
etc..) but I thought someone might know where you
can purchase a
single 14V battery.



Thanks in advance.
Er,... the terminal PD of a fully charged lead acid
cell is 2.2V, so
6 of them in series results in a battery PD of 13.2V.
As the cell
discharges the PD will gradually fall to some value
under 2V (how fast
and how long this process takes depends on the rate
of discharge and
the relative 'health' of the cell. So you may end up
with you battery
actually providing less than 12V for a good part of
the time it is in
use.

I suspect that manufacturers put 14V on their kit
to get across the point that is well able to withstand
the PD of a fully charge gell cell battery.

Rgds,

Derrick.

Derrick, Sam, Tim, Others
Thanks for the reply.
The reasons I think I need 14VDC a
1.) That is what I received with the glider when I
purchased it 2
years ago. ( 12 +2)
2.) The radio spec sheet calls for 14 VDC. It even
states if you put
this in a 28VDC aircraft, purchase the 28 to 14 VDC
converter. The
radio is a IImorrow Apollo 704. I am afraid to try
12VDC without
consulting directly with the manufacturer. Reason
being that if the
voltage is below what it is designed for, some electrical/electron
ic
parts will increase the current draw (amps). Excessive
current loads
can very damaging to electrical/electronic devices.
I know it will
burn up motors etc.. but not completely sure about
electronics. (I
am certianly not an electronic Engineer)

Joe


I’ll pick up on a point that Derrick raised if I may.
He is right but I’d just though I’d expand on the
issue somewhat further, with an extract from an article
I wrote recently.

The ‘nominal’ terminal voltage of a 2 v cell is just
that – a nominal voltage. It can actually range from
about 1.8v when fully discharged, to 2.2v when fully
charged, and can be as high as 2.45 – 2.5v (14.7-15v
for 12v battery) when the cell is actually on charge.
Add 6 together to get a ‘nominal’ 12v add seven together
to get a ‘nominal’ 14v.

As you don’t get something for nothing, you have to
replace the charge from the battery when the battery
discharged. In order to do this you have to apply
a potential greater than that of the cell. In normal
aviation and automotive applications, this charge is
provided by an alternator or generator connected to
the prime mover or engine. Because engine speed fluctuate,
and because the output of a generator or alternator
varies with input speeds, it is necessary to ‘cap’
or regulate the output voltage of the generator to
prevent both over voltage conditions and to provide
a voltage reference or standard, so that any electrical
equipment connected into the aircraft or vehicle operates
within the correct supply conditions. The, nominal’
12v electrical system and it’s associated components
and instruments consequently has to be capable of operating
across a range of voltages, in particular the generator
output voltages required to maintain the battery in
a fully charged stated. The output voltages of generators
normally is 13.5v ‘nominal’ but can be as high as 14.7-15v
under very low load conditions.

With me so far?

Gliders do not have the luxury of having a prime mover
capable of turning a generator and thereby maintaining
the battery in a fully charged condition. Most avionic
components and instruments are however designed for
General Aviation use (powered), and their use in sailplanes
and gliders is just seen a different branch of aviation.
There is little point in developing a new technical
standard specifically for gliders, when the current
systems works fine. Most of the instruments and components
in general aviation use (including gliding) are designed
to meet the normal voltage range input requirements
of general aviation. That is to say a ‘nominal’ 13.5v
but are generally tolerant to 14.5-15v at the upper
end, and may still continue to work at 8v at the lower
end. You will find many instruments and components
rated at 12v, 14v, 8-16v – but they are generally designed
to work on a nominal 12v system.

What has this got to do with batteries and the 12v
– 14v issue I hear you say….. Well let me continue!

The lack of ability for sailplanes and gliders to recharge
batteries in flight means that with a load being drawn
from the batteries, that eventually they will become
discharged and at the extreme your glider electrical
system will stop working! The need to minimise the
weight of gliders means that practically you need to
balance the weight of the battery with the ability
(capacity) of the battery to supply all your electrical
loads for about a days flying. No point in having a
heavy car battery in the fuselage – no point in your
battery going flat after 2 hours! A good balance
between the two is a battery that will just about last
a day –recharge overnight and then provide enough power
for the next day…etc. As batteries get older they
loose their ability to maintain their charge fully
and many owners find after a period of time that the
battery doesn’t quite last a day. One fairly typical
approach to overcome this has been the somewhat misunderstood
practice of adding another (2v) cell in series with
the 12v battery to try to give it a bit more power
– hence the variety of 12v/14v systems we see around.
Does it work?…….read on.

Battery capacity is measured by a battery’s ability
to provide a relatively constant current over a fixed
period of time at a ‘reasonably’ linear rate of decay.
Capacity is measured in Amperes per Hour (AH) and
will normally be quoted at either a 10 or 20 hour rate.
What this means is that battery rated at 7AH (20 hours
rate) is capable of providing 7A for one hour, or 350mA
for 20 hours (7/20) before becoming fully discharged
(and all calculations in between!). Still with me?
Adding batteries in parallel general increases overall
capacity; adding batteries in series does not increase
capacity (and can actually reduce capacity in some
instances). So what has this to do with the 12v/14v
issue….

Take the following example:

A glider has a 7 AH 12v battery fitted and the total
load impedance is 400ohms. When a fully charged battery
is fitted (assuming a nominal 12v) the battery should
be capable of providing a current of about 30mA for
23.3 hours. (V=IxR). If a 2v cell is added in series
to the 12v battery to give a nominal 14v, then the
total current drawn will be 35mA. The load (impedance)
does not increase but the current drawn is greater,
nevertheless the capacity of the 12v battery (7AH)
is such that it is capable of supplying 35mA for 20
hours, however…and here’s the bit most people don’t
understand….if the capacity of the additional 2v cell
is not at least 7AH (and very few are – most are around
350mA/H)), the 2v cell will discharge at a far faster
rate than the 12v battery. Once it is fully discharged
the system not only operates as a nominal 12v system
anyway, but the discharged cell acts as an in line
resistor to the supply current from the battery. This
causes a voltage drop across it reducing the overall
system voltage in some extremes to less than 12v.
So depending if the right capacity 2v cell is not
used , then you can actually degrade your electrical
system performance. If you use common capacity cells
to create 14v – ie 7 identical cells then unless you
have equipment that is extremely sensitive to supply
voltage, you may see a very tiny increase in the length
of time you can run your sailplane electric’s before
the system goes flat. In practice however, the mismatch
of 2v/12v cell capacities and the age of your battery
will have far more influence on the ability of your
battery to maintain your instruments longer.

Me, I’ve been an electrical, avionic and systems engineer
for the past 25 years and I use 2 x 12v 9AH batteries
(switchable between main and standby)

QED.

"Willy VINKEN" wrote in message ...
On 5 May 2004 09:08:46 GMT, Brian Penfold
wrote:

Capacity is measured in Amperes per Hour (AH) ...

Brian,

I think this should be corrected:
'AH' actually stands for 'A x H' and means 'Amperes times Hours'.
'Amperes per Hour' would rather be 'A/H'.
Or do I miss something?

Besides this, I agree with your point of view.
Adding a 2v element to a 12v battery could make some
sense to increase the RF output of the radio, since a
transmitter power amplifier output transistor usually is fed
directly from the battery, not via a voltage regulator.

With the radios you and I fly around with, they're always fed
directly from the battery. Claims that they use regulators are
bogus, made by people who are too cheap and lazy to put together
a proper battery for their radio, and want to rationalize why a
12 volt battery on a 14 volt radio is such a great idea. Strangely,
no one ever just says, "Hey, I'm just too cheap and lazy". In one
of these discussions, someone even claimed that most radios have
switching regulators built in. It's amazing how people can convince
themselves of whatever they want to believe, if they think they can
save a buck.



On the other hand, a freshly loaded 14v-nominal battery
probably exceedes the allowable voltage of most of our
electronic equipment. It's not worth the risk.

Not at all. The standard for small aircraft has been taken as 13.8
volts for about 75 years now. In reality, alternators and generators
provide 14-14.5 volts to keep a 12 volt battery fully charged. That's
why your radio will have a max voltage spec on it of 16 or 16.5 volts,
to provide some safety margin. If anybody starts selling avionics that
blow up at lower voltages, people should boycott them. It would be
*really* stupid to do so.


Willy M.D., -not- engineer... ;-)


Dave (who is an engineer, but who knows the difference between ampere-hours
and amperes/hour)

"Tim Newport-Peace" ] wrote in message ...
X-no-archive: yes
In article , Joe
Allbritten writes
Derrick, Sam, Tim, Others
Thanks for the reply.
The reasons I think I need 14VDC a
1.) That is what I received with the glider when I purchased it 2
years ago. ( 12 +2)
2.) The radio spec sheet calls for 14 VDC. It even states if you put
this in a 28VDC aircraft, purchase the 28 to 14 VDC converter. The
radio is a IImorrow Apollo 704. I am afraid to try 12VDC without
consulting directly with the manufacturer. Reason being that if the
voltage is below what it is designed for, some electrical/electronic
parts will increase the current draw (amps). Excessive current loads
can very damaging to electrical/electronic devices. I know it will
burn up motors etc.. but not completely sure about electronics. (I
am certianly not an electronic Engineer)

Joe
Not sure about FAA but as I recall, CAA require a radio to operate down
to at least 10.5 on 121.500MHz before approval will be granted. A modern
radio will do this on all frequencies.

So how do you define "operate"? Do you believe it will transmit at that
voltage with the same output power and same distortion levels as if it
had nominal voltage? Most radios will indeed transmit, but sound absolutely
horrible. You've probably heard some of these on the air.

-Dave



Tim Newport-Peace

"May you be cursed with a chronic anxiety about the weather."

John Burroughs (1837-1921).

"
Joe
Let us know where you find a 14v charger.

TIA,

Frank Whiteley

Frank,

I recieved one with the glider. It doesn't state the Mfg. but it does
have a Part number, RR14650A. It is a smart charger just for 14 V
gell cell packs. I have seen it at one of the websites that sales
soaring supplies.

If I figure out which one, I'll email you.
Joe

I investigated this issue for myself last year because
I was having problems with my Attitude Indicator which
was not managing to spin up properly on my 12v supply.

I have the following soaring instruments:
LX5000
LX20 logger
Becker Radio
Attitude Indicator
Turn & Slip
Garmin 3+

After some discussion, I fitted a 12-14v converter to
the back of the Attitude indicator and bought a larger
battery (? 12AmpHr).

Now the standard voltage normally reads about 12.8v at
the start of a flight, and I tend not to have problems
unless I have the Attitude Indicator turned on for
several hours. Everything works fine with the voltage
reading above 12v. The LX5000 starts to run into
problems if the voltage indicates 11.8v, and dies if
the voltage falls below this.

I optimistically assume that the LX20, Radio and T&S
might work down to about 10v, but I would like my
LX5000 to keep functioning.

So my system needs over 11.8v for the LX5000 and
probably over 13v for the Attitude Indicator.

I have not yet bought solar cells and I have not
really got room for another soaring battery. No IPAC
nor transponder to power.

Rory

"F.L. Whiteley" wrote in message
...

"Joe Allbritten" wrote in message
om...
Derrick Steed wrote in message
...
Sam Fly wrote
Joe,

Why do you want 14 volts...Most radios have a 12 volt regulator that
drops 14 volts to 12 volts...I for years used 14 volts only to find
out
is Let us know where you find a 14v charger.

TIA,

Frank Whiteley

Frank,
I bought one from tim mara last month.
He has them for both 12v and 14 v in his catalog.
Hope this helps.
Cheers! Pete Reinhart

Rory O'Conor wrote:
I investigated this issue for myself last year because
I was having problems with my Attitude Indicator which
was not managing to spin up properly on my 12v supply.

I have the following soaring instruments:
LX5000
LX20 logger
Becker Radio
Attitude Indicator
Turn & Slip
Garmin 3+

After some discussion, I fitted a 12-14v converter to
the back of the Attitude indicator and bought a larger
battery (? 12AmpHr).

Now the standard voltage normally reads about 12.8v at
the start of a flight, and I tend not to have problems
unless I have the Attitude Indicator turned on for
several hours. Everything works fine with the voltage
reading above 12v. The LX5000 starts to run into
problems if the voltage indicates 11.8v, and dies if
the voltage falls below this.

I optimistically assume that the LX20, Radio and T&S
might work down to about 10v, but I would like my
LX5000 to keep functioning.

So my system needs over 11.8v for the LX5000 and
probably over 13v for the Attitude Indicator.

I have not yet bought solar cells and I have not
really got room for another soaring battery. No IPAC
nor transponder to power.

Rory



My LX20 dies at around 9v...

Joe
Let us know where you find a 14v charger.

TIA,

Frank Whiteley

You can find them here.

http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page25.htm

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

Rory O'Conor wrote:
The LX5000 starts to run into
problems if the voltage indicates 11.8v, and dies if
the voltage falls below this.

I optimistically assume that the LX20, Radio and T&S
might work down to about 10v, but I would like my
LX5000 to keep functioning.

I suggest you contact your dealer or the company. According to Filser's
LX5000 manual, the power required is 8-16 volts, so your unit needs repairs.

Once it is repaired, you might consider running it and all equipment
except the horizon directly from the battery. This should make the
battery last longer, as you will avoid the loss from the converter.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

At 16:12 05 May 2004, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Rory O'Conor wrote:
The LX5000 starts to run into
problems if the voltage indicates 11.8v, and dies
if
the voltage falls below this.

I optimistically assume that the LX20, Radio and T&S
might work down to about 10v, but I would like my
LX5000 to keep functioning.

I suggest you contact your dealer or the company. According
to Filser's
LX5000 manual, the power required is 8-16 volts, so
your unit needs repairs.

Once it is repaired, you might consider running it
and all equipment
except the horizon directly from the battery. This
should make the
battery last longer, as you will avoid the loss from
the converter.

--
Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA
I’ll pick up on a point that Derrick raised if I may.
He is right but I’d just though I’d expand on the
issue somewhat further, with an extract from an article
I wrote recently.

The ‘nominal’ terminal voltage of a 2 v cell is just
that – a nominal voltage. It can actually range from
about 1.8v when fully discharged, to 2.2v when fully
charged, and can be as high as 2.45 – 2.5v (14.7-15v
for 12v battery) when the cell is actually on charge.
Add 6 together to get a ‘nominal’ 12v add seven together
to get a ‘nominal’ 14v.

As you don’t get something for nothing, you have to
replace the charge from the battery when the battery
discharged. In order to do this you have to apply
a potential greater than that of the cell. In normal
aviation and automotive applications, this charge is
provided by an alternator or generator connected to
the prime mover or engine. Because engine speed fluctuate,
and because the output of a generator or alternator
varies with input speeds, it is necessary to ‘cap’
or regulate the output voltage of the generator to
prevent both over voltage conditions and to provide
a voltage reference or standard, so that any electrical
equipment connected into the aircraft or vehicle operates
within the correct supply conditions. The, nominal’
12v electrical system and it’s associated components
and instruments consequently has to be capable of operating
across a range of voltages, in particular the generator
output voltages required to maintain the battery in
a fully charged stated. The output voltages of generators
normally is 13.5v ‘nominal’ but can be as high as 14.7-15v
under very low load conditions.

With me so far?

Gliders do not have the luxury of having a prime mover
capable of turning a generator and thereby maintaining
the battery in a fully charged condition. Most avionic
components and instruments are however designed for
General Aviation use (powered), and their use in sailplanes
and gliders is just seen a different branch of aviation.
There is little point in developing a new technical
standard specifically for gliders, when the current
systems works fine. Most of the instruments and components
in general aviation use (including gliding) are designed
to meet the normal voltage range input requirements
of general aviation. That is to say a ‘nominal’ 13.5v
but are generally tolerant to 14.5-15v at the upper
end, and may still continue to work at 8v at the lower
end. You will find many instruments and components
rated at 12v, 14v, 8-16v – but they are generally designed
to work on a nominal 12v system.

What has this got to do with batteries and the 12v
– 14v issue I hear you say….. Well let me continue!

The lack of ability for sailplanes and gliders to recharge
batteries in flight means that with a load being drawn
from the batteries, that eventually they will become
discharged and at the extreme your glider electrical
system will stop working! The need to minimise the
weight of gliders means that practically you need to
balance the weight of the battery with the ability
(capacity) of the battery to supply all your electrical
loads for about a days flying. No point in having a
heavy car battery in the fuselage – no point in your
battery going flat after 2 hours! A good balance
between the two is a battery that will just about last
a day –recharge overnight and then provide enough power
for the next day…etc. As batteries get older they
loose their ability to maintain their charge fully
and many owners find after a period of time that the
battery doesn’t quite last a day. One fairly typical
approach to overcome this has been the somewhat misunderstood
practice of adding another (2v) cell in series with
the 12v battery to try to give it a bit more power
– hence the variety of 12v/14v systems we see around.
Does it work?…….read on.

Battery capacity is measured by a battery’s ability
to provide a relatively constant current over a fixed
period of time at a ‘reasonably’ linear rate of decay.
Capacity is measured in Amperes per Hour (AH) and
will normally be quoted at either a 10 or 20 hour rate.
What this means is that battery rated at 7AH (20 hours
rate) is capable of providing 7A for one hour, or 350mA
for 20 hours (7/20) before becoming fully discharged
(and all calculations in between!). Still with me?
Adding batteries in parallel general increases overall
capacity; adding batteries in series does not increase
capacity (and can actually reduce capacity in some
instances). So what has this to do with the 12v/14v
issue….

Take the following example:

A glider has a 7 AH 12v battery fitted and the total
load impedance is 400ohms. When a fully charged battery
is fitted (assuming a nominal 12v) the battery should
be capable of providing a current of about 30mA for
23.3 hours. (V=IxR). If a 2v cell is added in series
to the 12v battery to give a nominal 14v, then the
total current drawn will be 35mA. The load (impedance)
does not increase but the current drawn is greater,
nevertheless the capacity of the 12v battery (7AH)
is such that it is capable of supplying 35mA for 20
hours, however…and here’s the bit most people don’t
understand….if the capacity of the additional 2v cell
is not at least 7AH (and very few are – most are around
350mA/H)), the 2v cell will discharge at a far faster
rate than the 12v battery. Once it is fully discharged
the system not only operates as a nominal 12v system
anyway, but the discharged cell acts as an in line
resistor to the supply current from the battery. This
causes a voltage drop across it reducing the overall
system voltage in some extremes to less than 12v.
So depending if the right capacity 2v cell is not
used , then you can actually degrade your electrical
system performance. If you use common capacity cells
to create 14v – ie 7 identical cells then unless you
have equipment that is extremely sensitive to supply
voltage, you may see a very tiny increase in the length
of time you can run your sailplane electric’s before
the system goes flat. In practice however, the mismatch
of 2v/12v cell capacities and the age of your battery
will have far more influence on the ability of your
battery to maintain your instruments longer.

Me, I’ve been an electrical, avionic and systems engineer
for the past 25 years and I use 2 x 12v 9AH batteries
(switchable between main and standby)

QED.