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This week's AW&ST: apparently THAAD will have some ABM (as in anti- *ICBM*) capability.
I was tempted to just copy/paste it but. . . Anyway. According to the article the data on THAAD in it's current incarnation indicates that it may have some terminal-phase ABM capability. I'd wondered if it was a typo and they'd inadvertantly typed "ICBM" instead of "IRBM" but it was repeated several times throughout the article and that it would be tested against ICBM-type targets later in the test program. Also, the missile's configuration is apparently quite different now though whether that's just under the skin they didn't say. |
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"Scott Ferrin" wrote in message ... I was tempted to just copy/paste it but. . . Anyway. According to the article the data on THAAD in it's current incarnation indicates that it may have some terminal-phase ABM capability. I'd wondered if it was a typo and they'd inadvertantly typed "ICBM" instead of "IRBM" but it was repeated several times throughout the article and that it would be tested against ICBM-type targets later in the test program. Also, the missile's configuration is apparently quite different now though whether that's just under the skin they didn't say. From what I have read, THAAD has always been forseen to have an anti-ICBM capability, but its engagement footprint in that role is supposed to be pretty small, and its primary role was intended to address the shorter range ballistic missiles one would expect to encounter in theater defense role. That said, I did see where one recent document noted that apparently the "T" in the acronym has lately been changed from representing "theater" to now representing "terminal"--take that for what it is worth. www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=5679&sequence=2 Brooks |
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Kevin Brooks wrote:
That said, I did see where one recent document noted that apparently the "T" in the acronym has lately been changed from representing "theater" to now representing "terminal"--take that for what it is worth. This was changed in February this year. MDA's official memo is at http://www.acq.osd.mil/mda/mdalink/pdf/term.pdf . From this, and some comments on the issue, it appears that the change was purely "political" (to make it clear that THAAD is a part of the US national missile defense effort, and not limited to deployment in (foreign) "theaters"). Andreas |
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On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 03:41:05 -0400, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote: "Scott Ferrin" wrote in message .. . I was tempted to just copy/paste it but. . . Anyway. According to the article the data on THAAD in it's current incarnation indicates that it may have some terminal-phase ABM capability. I'd wondered if it was a typo and they'd inadvertantly typed "ICBM" instead of "IRBM" but it was repeated several times throughout the article and that it would be tested against ICBM-type targets later in the test program. Also, the missile's configuration is apparently quite different now though whether that's just under the skin they didn't say. From what I have read, THAAD has always been forseen to have an anti-ICBM capability, but its engagement footprint in that role is supposed to be pretty small, When it was first designed it was right at the limit of what was allowed under the ABM treaty. As for the footprint, terminal defenses have never really had all that long of range anyway. Sprint was about 25 miles (although it could cover those miles a hell of a lot faster than THAAD :-) ) and HIBEX was less than that. HEDI would have been in the ballpark of Sprint most likely. and its primary role was intended to address the shorter range ballistic missiles one would expect to encounter in theater defense role. That said, I did see where one recent document noted that apparently the "T" in the acronym has lately been changed from representing "theater" to now representing "terminal"--take that for what it is worth. They also mentioned in the article that THAAD may reveive a "kick motor" and larger booster and would be able to defend the entire east or west coast against barge-launched (or sub-launched I suppose) TBMs with one battery. Unless they had launchers distributed up and down the coast though I find it difficult to imagine a THAAD in Oregon say being able to reach a TBM launched off the coast of San Diego in time. On the subject of missiles this file has some great stuff on the SA-10 and -12 family http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committe.../subs/sub2.pdf I had no idea the main radar for the SA-10 was that damn big! (Big Bird) |
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"Scott Ferrin" wrote in message ... On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 03:41:05 -0400, "Kevin Brooks" wrote: "Scott Ferrin" wrote in message .. . I was tempted to just copy/paste it but. . . Anyway. According to the article the data on THAAD in it's current incarnation indicates that it may have some terminal-phase ABM capability. I'd wondered if it was a typo and they'd inadvertantly typed "ICBM" instead of "IRBM" but it was repeated several times throughout the article and that it would be tested against ICBM-type targets later in the test program. Also, the missile's configuration is apparently quite different now though whether that's just under the skin they didn't say. From what I have read, THAAD has always been forseen to have an anti-ICBM capability, but its engagement footprint in that role is supposed to be pretty small, When it was first designed it was right at the limit of what was allowed under the ABM treaty. As for the footprint, terminal defenses have never really had all that long of range anyway. Sprint was about 25 miles (although it could cover those miles a hell of a lot faster than THAAD :-) ) and HIBEX was less than that. HEDI would have been in the ballpark of Sprint most likely. Yes, but Sprint was merely the lower tier of a two-tier system; Spartan had a significantly longer reach. Trying to defend a large urban area (like you find on the Left Coast) against ICBM attack with THAAD would require sprinkling launch sites around like the old Nike Ajax did...and that ain't gonna happen. Brooks and its primary role was intended to address the shorter range ballistic missiles one would expect to encounter in theater defense role. That said, I did see where one recent document noted that apparently the "T" in the acronym has lately been changed from representing "theater" to now representing "terminal"--take that for what it is worth. They also mentioned in the article that THAAD may reveive a "kick motor" and larger booster and would be able to defend the entire east or west coast against barge-launched (or sub-launched I suppose) TBMs with one battery. Unless they had launchers distributed up and down the coast though I find it difficult to imagine a THAAD in Oregon say being able to reach a TBM launched off the coast of San Diego in time. On the subject of missiles this file has some great stuff on the SA-10 and -12 family http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committe.../subs/sub2.pdf I had no idea the main radar for the SA-10 was that damn big! (Big Bird) |
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"Andreas Parsch" wrote in message ... Kevin Brooks wrote: That said, I did see where one recent document noted that apparently the "T" in the acronym has lately been changed from representing "theater" to now representing "terminal"--take that for what it is worth. This was changed in February this year. MDA's official memo is at http://www.acq.osd.mil/mda/mdalink/pdf/term.pdf . From this, and some comments on the issue, it appears that the change was purely "political" (to make it clear that THAAD is a part of the US national missile defense effort, and not limited to deployment in (foreign) "theaters"). Thanks, Andreas; sounds like you have read reasoning behind the change right to me. Brooks Andreas |
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On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:35:56 -0400, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote: "Scott Ferrin" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 03:41:05 -0400, "Kevin Brooks" wrote: "Scott Ferrin" wrote in message .. . I was tempted to just copy/paste it but. . . Anyway. According to the article the data on THAAD in it's current incarnation indicates that it may have some terminal-phase ABM capability. I'd wondered if it was a typo and they'd inadvertantly typed "ICBM" instead of "IRBM" but it was repeated several times throughout the article and that it would be tested against ICBM-type targets later in the test program. Also, the missile's configuration is apparently quite different now though whether that's just under the skin they didn't say. From what I have read, THAAD has always been forseen to have an anti-ICBM capability, but its engagement footprint in that role is supposed to be pretty small, When it was first designed it was right at the limit of what was allowed under the ABM treaty. As for the footprint, terminal defenses have never really had all that long of range anyway. Sprint was about 25 miles (although it could cover those miles a hell of a lot faster than THAAD :-) ) and HIBEX was less than that. HEDI would have been in the ballpark of Sprint most likely. Yes, but Sprint was merely the lower tier of a two-tier system; Spartan had a significantly longer reach. Well yeah. And NMD has a longer reach than THAAD *and* Spartan. Trying to defend a large urban area (like you find on the Left Coast) against ICBM attack with THAAD would require sprinkling launch sites around like the old Nike Ajax did...and that ain't gonna happen. Well not quite. Those were dedicated missile bases, each with a dozen or two launchers for LARGE missiles with quite a bit shorter range. Quite different than say, three or four radars total and a launcher or two per location operating out of military bases up and down the coast. They said that with the different booster THAAD could cover an entire coast with one battery. Last I heard a THAAD battery was suppose to be something like ONE radar and 32 missiles or so. |
#8
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"Scott Ferrin" wrote in message ... On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:35:56 -0400, "Kevin Brooks" wrote: "Scott Ferrin" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 03:41:05 -0400, "Kevin Brooks" wrote: "Scott Ferrin" wrote in message .. . I was tempted to just copy/paste it but. . . Anyway. According to the article the data on THAAD in it's current incarnation indicates that it may have some terminal-phase ABM capability. I'd wondered if it was a typo and they'd inadvertantly typed "ICBM" instead of "IRBM" but it was repeated several times throughout the article and that it would be tested against ICBM-type targets later in the test program. Also, the missile's configuration is apparently quite different now though whether that's just under the skin they didn't say. From what I have read, THAAD has always been forseen to have an anti-ICBM capability, but its engagement footprint in that role is supposed to be pretty small, When it was first designed it was right at the limit of what was allowed under the ABM treaty. As for the footprint, terminal defenses have never really had all that long of range anyway. Sprint was about 25 miles (although it could cover those miles a hell of a lot faster than THAAD :-) ) and HIBEX was less than that. HEDI would have been in the ballpark of Sprint most likely. Yes, but Sprint was merely the lower tier of a two-tier system; Spartan had a significantly longer reach. Well yeah. And NMD has a longer reach than THAAD *and* Spartan. How do you know what the engagement footprint is for THAAD in terms of ICBM's? It apparently is NOT the advertised "more than 200 km" range/150 km altitude advertised for it in the role of theater TBM killer. Spartan had a reported max range of some 740 km! THAAD comes in at about *on-third* the size of Spartan (6.2 meter length bversus some 16 meters, diameter of 0.34 meters versus over one meter for Spartan. If you think THAAD is gonna outreach Spartan, think again. Trying to defend a large urban area (like you find on the Left Coast) against ICBM attack with THAAD would require sprinkling launch sites around like the old Nike Ajax did...and that ain't gonna happen. Well not quite. Those were dedicated missile bases, And if you are going to try and protect the urban areas on the Left Coast with THAAD, don't you think you'd *need* dedicated basing? The crews would get kind of tired of eating at the Golden Arches every meal (thought they might like the TDY pay....). each with a dozen or two launchers for LARGE missiles with quite a bit shorter range. Those "LARGE" missiles were not much bigger than THAAD; about the same diameter, and a 10 meter length versus a six-plus meter length. Max range was about 50 km--and since we don't know *what* the max range is for THAAD in an anti-ICBM role (but we do know it would probably be quite a bit less than 200 km), your hypothesis seems to be a bit lacking. Quite different than say, three or four radars total and a launcher or two per location operating out of military bases up and down the coast. OK, take a gander at the distribution of coastal military bases, and tell me if they have a seperation of between one and one hundred fifty hundred klicks, which is about as good as you can expect to get with THAAD against an ICBM target. Once you have done that, I think you will see where your holes are, and they will be large ones. That is a LONG coast line along the Pacific, with a lot of population centers distributed along it. They said that with the different booster THAAD could cover an entire coast with one battery. Last I heard a THAAD battery was suppose to be something like ONE radar and 32 missiles or so. That will be one hell of a booster, and it will no longer be a THAAD. Not to mention that the radar would likely not be powerful enough to handle coverage of the entire coast... Brooks |
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Well yeah. And NMD has a longer reach than THAAD *and* Spartan. How do you know what the engagement footprint is for THAAD in terms of ICBM's? It apparently is NOT the advertised "more than 200 km" range/150 km altitude advertised for it in the role of theater TBM killer. Where did I say it was? Also I did mention NEW BOOSTER. Spartan had a reported max range of some 740 km! Great. NMD is several THOUSAND *miles*. THAAD comes in at about *on-third* the size of Spartan (6.2 meter length bversus some 16 meters, diameter of 0.34 meters versus over one meter for Spartan. If you think THAAD is gonna outreach Spartan, think again. Where did I say that? I've said "terminal" and Sprint all along. I've never once mentioned Spartan. You did. I don't think THAAD would have any trouble at all reaching Sprint's 25 mile range. Trying to defend a large urban area (like you find on the Left Coast) against ICBM attack with THAAD would require sprinkling launch sites around like the old Nike Ajax did...and that ain't gonna happen. Well not quite. Those were dedicated missile bases, And if you are going to try and protect the urban areas on the Left Coast with THAAD, don't you think you'd *need* dedicated basing? Nope. Do you even know what a dedicated missile site is? Do a Google on "Nike Hercules" and you'll get back two million hits with lots on info. A dedicated missile site is NOT and Airforce or Army base with a few missile launchers living there. The crews would get kind of tired of eating at the Golden Arches every meal (thought they might like the TDY pay....). Why would they have to? Is there something inherently impossible about stationing a couple THAAD launchers on an air base? each with a dozen or two launchers for LARGE missiles with quite a bit shorter range. Those "LARGE" missiles were not much bigger than THAAD 10,000 pounds and 41 feet (Hercules) vs 2000 pounds and 20 feet for THAAD. You're right, they're damn near identical. How many Nike Hercules you think they could squeeze onto a THAAD launcher? Ten? Five? One? ; about the same diameter, and a 10 meter length versus a six-plus meter length. Max range was about 50 km--and since we don't know *what* the max range is for THAAD in an anti-ICBM role (but we do know it would probably be quite a bit less than 200 km), your hypothesis seems to be a bit lacking. It seems your reading comprehension is nonexistant. Why don't you go back and reread everything I've written and then come back for discussion. I don't know what the hell you're on but you apparently misread something and ran with it. Off the deep end. Quite different than say, three or four radars total and a launcher or two per location operating out of military bases up and down the coast. OK, take a gander at the distribution of coastal military bases, and tell me if they have a seperation of between one and one hundred fifty hundred klicks, which is about as good as you can expect to get with THAAD against an ICBM target. Hey I didn't write the article. In fact if you had any reading skills at all you'd see I was wondering about it myself. Once you have done that, I think you will see where your holes are, and they will be large ones. That is a LONG coast line along the Pacific, with a lot of population centers distributed along it. They said that with the different booster THAAD could cover an entire coast with one battery. Last I heard a THAAD battery was suppose to be something like ONE radar and 32 missiles or so. That will be one hell of a booster, and it will no longer be a THAAD. A Titan IV isn't a Titan I but it's still a Titan. An SM-3 isn't an SM-1 MR but it's still a Standard. An AIM-9X isn't an AIM-9B but it's still a Sidewinder. Need I go on? Not to mention that the radar would likely not be powerful enough to handle coverage of the entire coast... Drop a 1200 mile diameter circle on the Pacific coast and that's your coverage. And again *I'm* not the one claiming ONE battery could do it. AW&ST is. I'd mention them needing three or four radars to do it. |
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"Scott Ferrin" wrote in message ... Well yeah. And NMD has a longer reach than THAAD *and* Spartan. How do you know what the engagement footprint is for THAAD in terms of ICBM's? It apparently is NOT the advertised "more than 200 km" range/150 km altitude advertised for it in the role of theater TBM killer. Where did I say it was? Also I did mention NEW BOOSTER. Scott, it is getting sort of hard to tell exactly *what* you are saying. You started this thread about THAAD and its ICBM intercept capability. When the fact that THAAD will have a reduced range when/if it engages an ICBM was pointed out, you brought Sprint into the equation, and when it was pointed out that Sprint was however part of a two-tier system, you launched into NMD (as a whole?). To keep it simple--yes, THAAD can apparently engage an ICBM, but only at reduced range, which means you need a fair number of systems to make it work. You mention new booster--great. But you are really not talking about THAAD anymore when you do that (saying you are going to give it new boosters and presumably new radars would leave you with a system that shares rather little with THAAD, IMO). Spartan had a reported max range of some 740 km! Great. NMD is several THOUSAND *miles*. Do you want to talk about GBMI or THAAD? Make up your mind. THAAD comes in at about *on-third* the size of Spartan (6.2 meter length bversus some 16 meters, diameter of 0.34 meters versus over one meter for Spartan. If you think THAAD is gonna outreach Spartan, think again. Where did I say that? I've said "terminal" and Sprint all along. I've never once mentioned Spartan. You did. I don't think THAAD would have any trouble at all reaching Sprint's 25 mile range. Which makes it (THAAD, not your postulated "Great Big Son of THAAD") a pretty lousy ICBM protection system, right? How many 25-mile range missile sites would you need just to cover the greater LA metropolitan area, much less every other metro area along the coast? Trying to defend a large urban area (like you find on the Left Coast) against ICBM attack with THAAD would require sprinkling launch sites around like the old Nike Ajax did...and that ain't gonna happen. Well not quite. Those were dedicated missile bases, And if you are going to try and protect the urban areas on the Left Coast with THAAD, don't you think you'd *need* dedicated basing? Nope. Do you even know what a dedicated missile site is? Do a Google on "Nike Hercules" and you'll get back two million hits with lots on info. A dedicated missile site is NOT and Airforce or Army base with a few missile launchers living there. Bullpoopie. I lived just down the street from both a Bomarc and a Nike Herc site as a kid; crap, my brother's first job in the Army was Nike Herc crewman, for gosh sakes. The Nike herc site even included *housing* (the Bomarc site did not because it was able to use nearby Langley AFB). Now, if you are going to use THAAD in this role, you WILL need dedicated launch sites, and dedicated radar sites, and you will need a lot of them to cover the metropolitan areas on the west coast. The crews would get kind of tired of eating at the Golden Arches every meal (thought they might like the TDY pay....). Why would they have to? Is there something inherently impossible about stationing a couple THAAD launchers on an air base? Gee, and I guess you are going to conveniently have an airbase located every 100 km or so along the coast? THAAD ain't gonna cut it as a metro defense system covering the west coast; whether or not your Great Big Son of THAAD will is another issue (maybe we ought to worry about getting the kinks ironed out of vanilla THAAD first?). each with a dozen or two launchers for LARGE missiles with quite a bit shorter range. Those "LARGE" missiles were not much bigger than THAAD 10,000 pounds and 41 feet (Hercules) vs 2000 pounds and 20 feet for THAAD. You're right, they're damn near identical. How many Nike Hercules you think they could squeeze onto a THAAD launcher? Ten? Five? One? I said AJAX! You were arguing about AJAX sites. Compare Ajax and THAAD and then get back to me, OK? ; about the same diameter, and a 10 meter length versus a six-plus meter length. Max range was about 50 km--and since we don't know *what* the max range is for THAAD in an anti-ICBM role (but we do know it would probably be quite a bit less than 200 km), your hypothesis seems to be a bit lacking. It seems your reading comprehension is nonexistant. Why don't you go back and reread everything I've written and then come back for discussion. I don't know what the hell you're on but you apparently misread something and ran with it. Off the deep end. Well, being as you have bounced from a question about THAAD to GBMI, from comparing Ajax siting requirements to hercules, etc., it appears my reading comprehension may not be the problem here. Quite different than say, three or four radars total and a launcher or two per location operating out of military bases up and down the coast. OK, take a gander at the distribution of coastal military bases, and tell me if they have a seperation of between one and one hundred fifty hundred klicks, which is about as good as you can expect to get with THAAD against an ICBM target. Hey I didn't write the article. In fact if you had any reading skills at all you'd see I was wondering about it myself. Then why are you so hellfire determined to argue that deploying THAAD to cover west coast metro areas would really be 'no big deal', so to speak? Once you have done that, I think you will see where your holes are, and they will be large ones. That is a LONG coast line along the Pacific, with a lot of population centers distributed along it. They said that with the different booster THAAD could cover an entire coast with one battery. Last I heard a THAAD battery was suppose to be something like ONE radar and 32 missiles or so. That will be one hell of a booster, and it will no longer be a THAAD. A Titan IV isn't a Titan I but it's still a Titan. An SM-3 isn't an SM-1 MR but it's still a Standard. An AIM-9X isn't an AIM-9B but it's still a Sidewinder. Need I go on? No. As you have plainly lost the bubble already. Brooks Not to mention that the radar would likely not be powerful enough to handle coverage of the entire coast... Drop a 1200 mile diameter circle on the Pacific coast and that's your coverage. And again *I'm* not the one claiming ONE battery could do it. AW&ST is. I'd mention them needing three or four radars to do it. |
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