Texas Tragedy Info?

This picture from the Houston Chronicle

http://ww1.hdnux.com/photos/13/60/75.../4/628x471.jpg

shows the ship being removed from the field after the crash. Note that the tail dolly is attached. While it could have been replaced post-accident, it's not likely.

On Jun 18, 12:35*pm, wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2012 2:13:38 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2012 10:54:30 AM UTC-7, cuflyer wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2012 9:37:03 AM UTC-4, Linwood wrote:
Anyone have any knowledge of the three fatality glider crash in Texas?
Glider type? Situation?

Linwood

Kid on his mother's lap - ? *Affecting control - ?
This is really ugly.

1FL

It was indeed the freaking tail dolly!!!
http://blog.chron.com/newswatch/2012...ash-under-inve...

Ramy

Nope- If the tail dolly was on, glider is still flyable. Most likely speculation on may part-#1 rule broken here which is FLY THE AIRPLANE.
I have seen a few tail dolly incidents or the years, and in every case, the pilot had to be told that the tail dolly was still on.
Other bad rule broken- NO unrestrained people in the glider- ever.
Terribly sad
UH

Probably true, but I've seen some monster Lark dollies which were so
heavy one person could barely lift them. Even with the CG in the
allowable range, the Twin Lark demands respect. It might not take
much weight on the tail boom for it to turn nasty.

This accident has all the earmarks of one which will drive changes to
the FAR's. The FAA has been grumbling for years the requirements to
get a Commercial-Glider or CFI-G are way too easy to meet. I think
fair warning is in order that we may see changes to Part 61.

My deepest sympathies go to the family and friends of the mother and
daughter.

On Monday, June 18, 2012 12:21:22 PM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2012 2:07:03 PM UTC-5, Frank Whiteley wrote:
If it is not the cause, must be to main contributing factor. I just find it hard to believe that it is unrelated.
What a tragedy

Ramy

From the images, it appears the tail dolly may have been attached so the handle could be used as a lift point for one of the straps.

FW

the CBS link that i posted first does show the tail dolly on before it was being lifted out of the field. but you are right it could've been put there post-crash to help with moving.

Indeed the tail dolly is seen in earlier photo. I find it very hard to believe that someone had the presence of mind to put the tail dolly on after the crash.
I speculate that it was the main contributing factor, which perhaps caused a distraction and wrong pilot action. This reminds us again that we all human and we all do mistakes, no matter how experienced we are (my understanding he was a high time instructor). Most of the time we get away with them, but sometime we don't. The most unfortunate thing is that it happen when giving a ride to 2 family members. This really really sucks!


Ramy

On Monday, June 18, 2012 12:04:38 PM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:

Nope- If the tail dolly was on, glider is still flyable. Most likely speculation on may part-#1 rule broken here which is FLY THE AIRPLANE.
I have seen a few tail dolly incidents or the years, and in every case, the pilot had to be told that the tail dolly was still on.
Other bad rule broken- NO unrestrained people in the glider- ever.
Terribly sad
UH

Photos do clearly show the tail dolly on. That can't help a cg, though
as Hank says unlikely to move it too far aft unless already at the
back limit. It does suggest things getting hurried in the preflight.

Photos also show both spoilers full open. That could happen in a crash
of course, but might also be indicative of things going wrong. There
was a spoler-open crash earlier this year where the pilots
interepreted the rudder waggle as a wing rock (NTSB). This is a very
dangerous combination. If you don't know the spoilers are open, you
won't know to use the much lower-nose pitch attitude that spoilers
require. You're at 200 feet, not aware your spoilers are open, and in
a pitch attitude that will lead quickly to loss of airspeed. I've been
having towplanes waggle rudders at BFR rides for a while, quite a few
of them release.

And I have to agree with Hank. They let you carry kids on airliners,
but this ain't an airliner -- there's no stick in seat 37E either.
Small children won't get that much out of a glider ride that can't
wait until they can sit alone. I don't let rides even bring video
cameras any more. They won't produce good footage, they'll just get
sick looking through the camera, and it can drop in uncomfortable
places.

John Cochrane

While may not related to this accident, I understand there was another rudder waggle accident recently??
Just to show how confusing it is, I specifically asked in my last BFR to get a rudder waggle (I know, it is not as effective when you ask for it) - the instructor or tow pilot misunderstood and gave me a wing rock instead. It was still effective, since my decision is to always check my rudder first before releasing no matter what the tow plane is doing. If we always trained that way, we could eliminate this deadly but common mistake.

Ramy

I'm a member of GHSA and it's clear we need more investigative information than speculation.

Certain comments from witnesses at the field (and I WAS NOT one of them) indicate there were controllability issues seconds after rotating. The towpilot is said to have been feeling the excessive pulls on the rope increase, and was seeing the glider pitching around (in the mirror) far more than usual. One witness said he was about to release the rope at his end when it broke. Either way the glider was free of the rope at 75-100 feet AGL according to the preliminary statements of the NTSB official at the crash site.

Our Twin Lark had taken off once long ago with the tail dolly attached, and landed without incident (it's a light dolly). My "opinion" is the dolly likely didn't contribute to the instability issue, but it tells another story: the PIC didn't thoroughly preflight the glider. It will require the official investigation by NTSB to determine if anything else was not addressed prior to takeoff.

Obviously a key attention point is the child. I've heard the media comments (local TV) that the child WAS strapped in using the same belts/harness as his mother… AND he was not. Again--we have to wait for the official finding. Also not officially determined: the sitting positions of the pilot and the mother/child (who was in the front and who was in the back?). I'm in agreement with the comments that there is no way you go flying with an unrestrained passenger on board. I'm also of the opinion that it's not prudent to take someone that young up simply because the cockpits are very confining, controls are in easy reach, and children that young can be prone to instant panic and physical anguish. That, in of itself, would be a severe distraction to the PIC.

There are a number of points NTSB will have to examine:

(1) weight and balance loading
(2) aircraft condition
(3) towpilot comments
(4) ground witnesses
(5) radio calls
(6) physical condition of the pilot.

Again--the tail dolly points to inattention on the part of the PIC, but nothing more until the NTSB reports on the preceding. I know for a fact that when I was out there Saturday, there were no squawks reported on the Twin Lark, which had been flying that day.

I've known the pilot since jointing the club in 1997. He's been a senior instructor since that time and he signed me off for my transition pilot practical. I considered him an attentive and conservative pilot. I've personally never known him to have any medical conditions; he seemed in good shape when I talked to him Saturday. You have to remember: This was his daughter-in-law and grandson that he took flying, so his typical preflight routine MAY--REPEAT--MAY have been distracted by the family aspect of the moment. It's likely another club member was ground crewing and standing near the glider as they were loading, so we'll need to wait for those eyewitness comments.

For now that's all we know and we must keep the speculation down and await the NTSB's report. Fred will be greatly missed. It's tough all around since GHSA has had a pretty good safety record. We haven't had a major accident since 1999 and in that one the pilot walked away from his low-time, lack-of-judgement landing approach decisions that caused him to go off the end of the runway and total the glider.

Eye witness accounts are that the nose pitched down, and maybe there was some roll involved too. Neither is consistent with CG too far aft. I'm wondering if the child was secured or free to wriggle forward into the stick? Or just kick the stick forward with feet? Terrible to contemplate, no matter what. Fred

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "since my decision is to always check my rudder first before releasing no matter what the tow plane is doing. If we always trained that way, we could eliminate this deadly but common mistake. "

My control (including rudder check) is before hookup. If I understand what you're saying, you work the rudder before release.
1) how does that eliminate this deadly mistake?
2)What do you do if you discover it to be jammed at that time? Tow back to a landing? That's hardly the best time to discover that, I would think. {that may sound a little snarky, but I don't mean it that way - just a genuine inquiry}


On Monday, June 18, 2012 12:46:53 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2012 12:04:38 PM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:

Nope- If the tail dolly was on, glider is still flyable. Most likely speculation on may part-#1 rule broken here which is FLY THE AIRPLANE.
I have seen a few tail dolly incidents or the years, and in every case, the pilot had to be told that the tail dolly was still on.
Other bad rule broken- NO unrestrained people in the glider- ever.
Terribly sad
UH

Photos do clearly show the tail dolly on. That can't help a cg, though
as Hank says unlikely to move it too far aft unless already at the
back limit. It does suggest things getting hurried in the preflight.

Photos also show both spoilers full open. That could happen in a crash
of course, but might also be indicative of things going wrong. There
was a spoler-open crash earlier this year where the pilots
interepreted the rudder waggle as a wing rock (NTSB). This is a very
dangerous combination. If you don't know the spoilers are open, you
won't know to use the much lower-nose pitch attitude that spoilers
require. You're at 200 feet, not aware your spoilers are open, and in
a pitch attitude that will lead quickly to loss of airspeed. I've been
having towplanes waggle rudders at BFR rides for a while, quite a few
of them release.

And I have to agree with Hank. They let you carry kids on airliners,
but this ain't an airliner -- there's no stick in seat 37E either.
Small children won't get that much out of a glider ride that can't
wait until they can sit alone. I don't let rides even bring video
cameras any more. They won't produce good footage, they'll just get
sick looking through the camera, and it can drop in uncomfortable
places.

John Cochrane

While may not related to this accident, I understand there was another rudder waggle accident recently??
Just to show how confusing it is, I specifically asked in my last BFR to get a rudder waggle (I know, it is not as effective when you ask for it) - the instructor or tow pilot misunderstood and gave me a wing rock instead. It was still effective, since my decision is to always check my rudder first before releasing no matter what the tow plane is doing. If we always trained that way, we could eliminate this deadly but common mistake.

Ramy

On Monday, June 18, 2012 1:55:21 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:

If it is not the cause, must be to main contributing factor. I just find it hard to believe that it is unrelated.

Ramy, unless the glider was stalled and spun and couldn't recover, the tail dolly likely didn't have anything to do with it.

Aft CG makes a plane sensitive in pitch and possibly hard (or impossible) to recover from a stall/spin. But on tow you are way above stall speed.

Biggest problem with a tail dolly left on (on most gliders with a normal CG) is lack of directional control on takeoff or landing.

But again, this is all speculation.

Sad, whatever the cause. But Tom K may have to add number 45 to his list...

Kirk
66

On Monday, June 18, 2012 3:13:11 PM UTC-5, Bill Palmer wrote:
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "since my decision is to always check my rudder first before releasing no matter what the tow plane is doing. If we always trained that way, we could eliminate this deadly but common mistake. "

My control (including rudder check) is before hookup. If I understand what you're saying, you work the rudder before release.
1) how does that eliminate this deadly mistake?
2)What do you do if you discover it to be jammed at that time? Tow back to a landing? That's hardly the best time to discover that, I would think. {that may sound a little snarky, but I don't mean it that way - just a genuine inquiry}


On Monday, June 18, 2012 12:46:53 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2012 12:04:38 PM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:

Nope- If the tail dolly was on, glider is still flyable. Most likely speculation on may part-#1 rule broken here which is FLY THE AIRPLANE.
I have seen a few tail dolly incidents or the years, and in every case, the pilot had to be told that the tail dolly was still on.
Other bad rule broken- NO unrestrained people in the glider- ever.
Terribly sad
UH

Photos do clearly show the tail dolly on. That can't help a cg, though
as Hank says unlikely to move it too far aft unless already at the
back limit. It does suggest things getting hurried in the preflight.

Photos also show both spoilers full open. That could happen in a crash
of course, but might also be indicative of things going wrong. There
was a spoler-open crash earlier this year where the pilots
interepreted the rudder waggle as a wing rock (NTSB). This is a very
dangerous combination. If you don't know the spoilers are open, you
won't know to use the much lower-nose pitch attitude that spoilers
require. You're at 200 feet, not aware your spoilers are open, and in
a pitch attitude that will lead quickly to loss of airspeed. I've been
having towplanes waggle rudders at BFR rides for a while, quite a few
of them release.

And I have to agree with Hank. They let you carry kids on airliners,
but this ain't an airliner -- there's no stick in seat 37E either.
Small children won't get that much out of a glider ride that can't
wait until they can sit alone. I don't let rides even bring video
cameras any more. They won't produce good footage, they'll just get
sick looking through the camera, and it can drop in uncomfortable
places.

John Cochrane

While may not related to this accident, I understand there was another rudder waggle accident recently??
Just to show how confusing it is, I specifically asked in my last BFR to get a rudder waggle (I know, it is not as effective when you ask for it) - the instructor or tow pilot misunderstood and gave me a wing rock instead.. It was still effective, since my decision is to always check my rudder first before releasing no matter what the tow plane is doing. If we always trained that way, we could eliminate this deadly but common mistake.

Ramy

Friends ..
Being so crushed and speechless sitting "mind empty" at my desk .. not be able to gather thoughts, I decided to share with you something I am gathering keen observation on , which may or may not played a rule here but it may be equally important preventing another tragic accident.
I have been flying glass ships for a while, and kind of the ship I fly requires solid 60-65 knots on the tow. This is what makes me comfortable and provides me full control over her..
I have been flying in different places, and I noticed NOT A ONE TIME when tow pilot slowed down so dramatically in a deep turn (intentionally or not) ... that my stick become very.. very.. mushy (and some oscillation my shows up when getting in-and-out of the wake.
To cut some comments right away .. YES - I always ask for 65kts - 60kts min .. on the radio before a take off as a part of my pre-takeoff routine ..
Nerveless, things happen as I learned to live with unexpected ... My method is stay close to the wake (and hide there at the earliest speed drop) especially during early part of the takeoff and watching my release handle just-in-case .. before my wings drop beyond recovery ..
Believe me when I say then one tow pilot had a ASI in miles .. and did not translated my "knoted" requests to proper speed...
And sometimes tow pilots wants to pull me up as quickly as they possibly could ... since the weather is so nice ..and the WAITING LINE is long.

HEAVY TAIL (with a dolly -- but STILL FLYABLE) ... suddenly reduced speed on tow in a first turn ... maybe not much but enough to stall "out of balance" glider ... and pitching may be just a desperate case to wrestling last bits of control from stalling glider ... until the rope broke ..

Respectfully Yours - KiloCharlie

On Jun 18, 10:54*am, cuflyer wrote:

Kid on his mother's lap - ? *Affecting control - ?
This is really ugly.

In the course of figuring out how to design a glider, I have picked
through the wreckage of many sailplanes, including no few stall/spins.
And I don't think I've ever seen a stall/spin result in that much
forward fuselage damage. At least not in a metal glider.

Thanks, Bob K.