Open Discussion; Creating XC pilots

I am curious. How many people in this discussion were hand held every step of the way of starting to fly XC or just went out and tried it for themselves? I wouldn't be surprised if many if not most of us taught ourselves by going a little further each time. For some pilots this is a thrill, for others a fear. Is it possible that XC pilots self-select by just going and trying it and those who wait for dual and a steady hand to help each step of the way might not often turn into life long XC pilots?

Please don't be offended by these questions. I am just asking because at least here in Utah, my observation is that the only XC pilots I know taught themselves. Those who are waiting for someone to take them.......are still waiting.

Bruno - B4

On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 14:53:54 -0700, brunovassel wrote:

I am curious. How many people in this discussion were hand held every
step of the way of starting to fly XC or just went out and tried it for
themselves? I wouldn't be surprised if many if not most of us taught
ourselves by going a little further each time. For some pilots this is
a thrill, for others a fear. Is it possible that XC pilots self-select
by just going and trying it and those who wait for dual and a steady
hand to help each step of the way might not often turn into life long XC
pilots?

I don't know how this ties in with usual US experience, but its normal
practise at my club in the UK.

- shortly after soloing I got my first XC ride in the club's Grob Acro
during our Regionals. The deal was that we got back seat in a comp.
flight and formed the Grob retrieval crew for the rest of the Regionals.
Seemed like a good deal.

- after soloing and converting to an SZD Junior I worked on the UK
Bronze badge: 50 solo flights, written and flying tests including
spot landings as the last checks before it was issued. During this
I'd also done Silver C height and duration legs.

- navigation, field selection, field landing exercises in an SF-25 TMG
plus 1 and 2 hour soaring flights got me the Bronze XC endorsement.

- within a week of getting the XC endorsement I was briefed and sent off
to do Silver C distance in a Junior: navigate the 68km to Rattlesden and
land there for a first taste of landing at an airfield I'd never seen
before. This was my first solo XC.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Friday, July 18, 2014 3:53:54 PM UTC-6, wrote:
I am curious. How many people in this discussion were hand held every step of the way of starting to fly XC or just went out and tried it for themselves? I wouldn't be surprised if many if not most of us taught ourselves by going a little further each time. For some pilots this is a thrill, for others a fear. Is it possible that XC pilots self-select by just going and trying it and those who wait for dual and a steady hand to help each step of the way might not often turn into life long XC pilots?



Please don't be offended by these questions. I am just asking because at least here in Utah, my observation is that the only XC pilots I know taught themselves. Those who are waiting for someone to take them.......are still waiting.



Bruno - B4

Bruno, I know of successful XC pilots who individually took one or the other of these approaches. It works either way but I tend to believe a few dual XC's is the better approach if that opportunity is available.

Then too, there's more than one way to learn. I listened very carefully to experienced XC pilots and read dozens of books before taking off on my own - less successfully at first and then progressively better with experience..

OTOH, some of those pilots who got dual XC training but spent little time with books or listening to veterans struggled for quite a while before they achieved anything significant. People are different.

As a side comment, almost all the information I came across was rather good at teaching one how to go fast or far in reasonably good conditions but less informative about how to recognize and manage situations that are starting to go bad. Most early XC flights are a series of recoveries from bad situations. I can see a lot of benefit from including this training.

On Friday, July 18, 2014 2:53:54 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I am curious. How many people in this discussion were hand held every step of the way of starting to fly XC or just went out and tried it for themselves?

My path:

6 hrs Total Time: Solo (SGS 2-33, Elmira)
19 hrs TT: First flight of 1 hour or more - Sliver altitude (SGS 2-33 Frederick, MD)
41 hrs TT: Silver duration, Silver Distance (SGS 1-26, Estrella, AZ)
43 hrs TT: First outlanding (SGS 1-34, on a highway between Hobbs and Odessa, TX)
95 hrs TT: First contest flight (LS-3, Ionia, MI)
420 hrs TT: Diamond Goal (LS-4, El Tiro, AZ)

My first cross-country flights we on a soaring safari with my Dad and brother from the Mojave back to the east coast after picking up the first family glider - a 1-34. I guess I just got pushed out of the nest. I was lucky to have some early flights in gigantic western thermals and even so managed to land out. There was some coaching, but not a lot as I look back on it. It was just assumed that the goal was to go somewhere. Progressing through the badge system seemed like what you were supposed to do.

Club flying greatly slows the process down it seems to me - the general availability and 1-hour time limits on club ships.

I agree that 20-meter 2-seaters should be a huge benefit to helping people make the leap sooner rather than later. Getting a lot of 2-seaters to a Nephi-type event paired with people on the cusp of XC flying and experienced XC pilots could be a real boost.

9B

On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 12:41:40 PM UTC-7, noel.wade wrote:
MB -



Does Willamette Valley assign an instructor to a student....

Noel, et al,

I've been on the road all week and not able to respond to questions or comments in a timely manner, my apologies.

The WVSC does not exactly assign students, the chief instructor just asks who can take another student and that's where they go! We have a policy that students that are flying before 12PM can take three flights or one hour. That works pretty well in the morning before the lift begins. The students can get in at least a couple 3000 tows and a pattern in the hour. If they hang areound the rest of the day they may get in one or two more. We're open 4 days a week, Wed. Fri. and weekends. Students that can do their flying on Wed. or Fri. can really make progress as the demand for ships is lower on those days.

As I said, this year we are constrained and are not accepting more students until some of the pre-solo students have soloed. Instructors are "normal" members of the club, they pay dues and work Ops days. They are also independent in most of their financial dealings with their students. The exception is the 5-pack where payment comes from the club. Last year I went over the $600 IRS limit (with 5-packs) and got a 1099 from the club!

I think most instructors in the club are charging $35 per hour and the population is happy with the rates.

Regarding XC use of club planes, we also require that all pilots have a Private certificate and complete the Bronze badge before attempting solo. I also think that many complete the duration leg of the Silver badge before heading out XC.

As I noted in the OP, I bought a higher performance dual-seat glider just so I could teach the XC elements "for real". Once the club got a ship that was able to be used, I sold mine.

Regarding the use of Condor, I've had great success in the past year getting student using Condor and making great progress. I bought a copy of Frank's book at the convention and am still trying to get into it, I'm a professional flight instructor, it's my daily job, and this time of year we fly from sun-up to sun-down at the flight school. I don't get much reading time!

I have used a C-150 to do area flights, getting students looking at the potential land-out sites and just getting a broader view of the world.

Another long post but I was just catching up!

MB

On 7/18/2014 3:53 PM, wrote:
I am curious. How many people in this discussion were hand held every step
of the way of starting to fly XC or just went out and tried it for
themselves?
Snip

...I am just asking because at
least here in Utah, my observation is that the only XC pilots I know taught
themselves. Those who are waiting for someone to take them.......are still
waiting.

Assuming by "self-taught" you mean something along the lines of absorbing
basic instruction goal-oriented essentially toward one's ticket, during which
perhaps the mentioning of badges and a broad-brush intro to the basics of XC
flight/landing concepts occurred...along with the obvious expectation that of
COURSE every trainee would eventually go XC, then self-taught worked for me.

The only mental hurdle of any significance in my mind was the off-field
landing aspect, and the thought of hand-holding never occurred to me, even had
it been a possibility in the early 1970s (which it wasn't). A person either
elected to fly XC or chose not to, and I recall being surprised that there
were people who chose NOT to go XC. I didn't realize there were until after I
had my license...and by then it struck me as quite odd!

The concept/possibility of "hand-holding-based XC training" reminds me of
something engineers (my degree) are often accused of in the
manufacturing-oriented industries with which I'm familiar. Namely, engineers
need managers/sales-types/whomever around to pry from their designing,
grasping hands the widgets...or else said widgets would never go into
production, design perfection being arguably endemic to many engineers.
("Better" is the enemy of "good enough.")

Might there be a similar effect at work in some wannabe XC pilots where the
concept of "learning perfection" is substituted for "design perfection?" One
can always learn more, but "forever learning" can also inhibit learning's
application. At some point, "Just do it!" makes sense. Distance falls out in
the wash once Joe Pilot knows how to safely pick fields.

Bob W.

On Saturday, July 19, 2014 12:58:48 AM UTC-4, BobW wrote:

Might there be a similar effect at work in some wannabe XC pilots where the concept of "learning perfection" is substituted for "design perfection?"

I view my pronounced and long-recognized tendency to 'gold-plate' (aka 'design perfection') as a personality asset in the domain of soaring. It is only tedious for onlookers.

If I was making a product to sell, I would need to push it out the door. But as long as I'm making rapid and steady progress (log book shows decrease in tow release heights and increase in average speed), I see no drawback to my systematic and incremental approach. It's not for everyone.

If you have the personality type that is systematic and not easily bored, gold plating works well in a self-paced hobby. Sure, some people have more 'go for it' in their personality mix and we need to structure and facilitate their progress or they will get frustrated and quit.

An old hand wisely pointed out that I should savor all of the stages of learning to soar (for example, the 1-26 phase) and not be in a rush. It's all fun.

On Saturday, July 19, 2014 8:47:55 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

An old hand wisely pointed out that I should savor all of the stages of learning to soar (for example, the 1-26 phase) and not be in a rush. It's all fun.

Well said! Keep us posted on your progress (the ups and the downs - which are usually more interesting!)

Cheers,

Kirk
66

To follow Andy's lead:

Apr 86 - intro flight in a G-103. I flew the entire flight; takeoff,
aero tow, pattern, and landing. Prior Air Force with lots of formation
time... Soloed on 6th flight.
Nov 86 - Commercial add-on and started giving rides in a Twin Lark
Mar 87 - Winch checkout and giving rides in Twin Lark at Bond Springs,
NT, Australia
Jul 87 - Bought my first glider, a Mosquito B
Apr 88 - Second glider, an ASW-19b
Sep 88 - Started towing gliders
Mar 89 - Silver Badge
Sep 89 - Gold Badge
Jan 92 - Third glider, an LS-6a
Nov 94 - Diamond Badge

Some time in late 87 a friend, Fred Taylor, who also had a Mosquito
invited me to join him in riding the leading edge of a cold front west
of TSA, Texas Soaring Association. ...And the hook was set. Nowadays,
I don't bother taking off unless it appears I can go somewhere. It's
been a heck of a ride and it ain't over yet!

Dan Marotta

On 7/18/2014 7:16 PM, wrote:
On Friday, July 18, 2014 2:53:54 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I am curious. How many people in this discussion were hand held every step of the way of starting to fly XC or just went out and tried it for themselves?
My path:

6 hrs Total Time: Solo (SGS 2-33, Elmira)
19 hrs TT: First flight of 1 hour or more - Sliver altitude (SGS 2-33 Frederick, MD)
41 hrs TT: Silver duration, Silver Distance (SGS 1-26, Estrella, AZ)
43 hrs TT: First outlanding (SGS 1-34, on a highway between Hobbs and Odessa, TX)
95 hrs TT: First contest flight (LS-3, Ionia, MI)
420 hrs TT: Diamond Goal (LS-4, El Tiro, AZ)

My first cross-country flights we on a soaring safari with my Dad and brother from the Mojave back to the east coast after picking up the first family glider - a 1-34. I guess I just got pushed out of the nest. I was lucky to have some early flights in gigantic western thermals and even so managed to land out. There was some coaching, but not a lot as I look back on it. It was just assumed that the goal was to go somewhere. Progressing through the badge system seemed like what you were supposed to do.

Club flying greatly slows the process down it seems to me - the general availability and 1-hour time limits on club ships.

I agree that 20-meter 2-seaters should be a huge benefit to helping people make the leap sooner rather than later. Getting a lot of 2-seaters to a Nephi-type event paired with people on the cusp of XC flying and experienced XC pilots could be a real boost.

9B

On Friday, July 18, 2014 10:58:48 PM UTC-6, BobW wrote:
On 7/18/2014 3:53 PM, wrote:

I am curious. How many people in this discussion were hand held every step

of the way of starting to fly XC or just went out and tried it for

themselves?

Snip



...I am just asking because at

least here in Utah, my observation is that the only XC pilots I know taught

themselves. Those who are waiting for someone to take them.......are still

waiting.



Assuming by "self-taught" you mean something along the lines of absorbing

basic instruction goal-oriented essentially toward one's ticket, during which

perhaps the mentioning of badges and a broad-brush intro to the basics of XC

flight/landing concepts occurred...along with the obvious expectation that of

COURSE every trainee would eventually go XC, then self-taught worked for me.



The only mental hurdle of any significance in my mind was the off-field

landing aspect, and the thought of hand-holding never occurred to me, even had

it been a possibility in the early 1970s (which it wasn't). A person either

elected to fly XC or chose not to, and I recall being surprised that there

were people who chose NOT to go XC. I didn't realize there were until after I

had my license...and by then it struck me as quite odd!



The concept/possibility of "hand-holding-based XC training" reminds me of

something engineers (my degree) are often accused of in the

manufacturing-oriented industries with which I'm familiar. Namely, engineers

need managers/sales-types/whomever around to pry from their designing,

grasping hands the widgets...or else said widgets would never go into

production, design perfection being arguably endemic to many engineers.

("Better" is the enemy of "good enough.")



Might there be a similar effect at work in some wannabe XC pilots where the

concept of "learning perfection" is substituted for "design perfection?" One

can always learn more, but "forever learning" can also inhibit learning's

application. At some point, "Just do it!" makes sense. Distance falls out in

the wash once Joe Pilot knows how to safely pick fields.



Bob W.

Fear of out landings just didn't occur to me as a student pilot. The "airfield" at lake Elsinore, CA was smaller, rougher with bigger weeds than the surrounding farm fields (This was in the early 1960's.) so land outs actually seemed safer than coming back to the home field.

Then, as now, there were a minority of pilots who loudly declared that anyone who went XC was "crazy" - unfortunately some were instructors who made sure their students felt that way too. That got me thinking that all instructors should be required to have at least some XC experience to weed out the anti-XC types.