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Jim Weir or other qualified persons: a tangent on the 2 radio 1 antennathread
Something about the thread, regarding transmitting power from one radio
being funnelled into the other radio made me take pause. In the Houston area (and I'm sure most other major cities) there is an antenna farm that has a collection of FM, AM and TV broadcast antennae. I would estimate there are 10 in a several square mile area and have radiated power in the Tens of Thousands of watts. This area lies just to the southwest outside the surface area of Hobby's Class B and the tops of the antennae reach up to the floor of the next ring of Class B. When circumnavigating the Class B its not uncommon to be as close as a mile to these towers and once or twice I've heard bleed-over on the VHF radios of the aircraft. My question is, given the limited "resistance" of some of the radio components (and the ability to tolerate less than a watt input if I paraphrased it correctly) I am wondering just how much energy the radio system is being exposed to flying by the transmitting elements a mile away laterally, and how prudent that is for the longevity of the components. Lets use 50,000 watts if that is appropriate for the example. Dave |
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On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:17:48 GMT, Dave S
wrote: // My question is, given the limited "resistance" of some of the radio components (and the ability to tolerate less than a watt input if I paraphrased it correctly) I am wondering just how much energy the radio system is being exposed to flying by the transmitting elements a mile away laterally, and how prudent that is for the longevity of the components. Lets use 50,000 watts if that is appropriate for the example. Dave You are not the only one who has experienced breakthrough near a big transmitter tower. Here's a rough, rough estimate of intercepted power. If 50 kw were distributed through a spherical surface of 1 mile in radius, what would the power intercepted by one square yard? (arbitrary cross-section value for a 1/4 wave whip...) power times Antenna cross-section / Extended surface area [4/3 pi r squared] = 4 milliwatts Into 50 ohms, that would amount to v^2/50 = 0.004 v^2 = 0.2 v^2 so V = 0.4 volts very roughly.... Brian W |
#3
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Brian Whatcott wrote: On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:17:48 GMT, Dave S wrote: // My question is, given the limited "resistance" of some of the radio components (and the ability to tolerate less than a watt input if I paraphrased it correctly) I am wondering just how much energy the radio system is being exposed to flying by the transmitting elements a mile away laterally, and how prudent that is for the longevity of the components. Lets use 50,000 watts if that is appropriate for the example. Dave You are not the only one who has experienced breakthrough near a big transmitter tower. Here's a rough, rough estimate of intercepted power. If 50 kw were distributed through a spherical surface of 1 mile in radius, what would the power intercepted by one square yard? (arbitrary cross-section value for a 1/4 wave whip...) power times Antenna cross-section / Extended surface area [4/3 pi r squared] = 4 milliwatts Into 50 ohms, that would amount to v^2/50 = 0.004 v^2 = 0.2 v^2 so V = 0.4 volts very roughly.... Brian W And the sensitivity of most receivers is rated in MICRO volts ! ?? |
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On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:33:22 -0500, jerry Wass
wrote: /// I am wondering just how much energy the radio system is being exposed to flying by the transmitting elements a mile away laterally, and how prudent that is for the longevity of the components. Lets use 50,000 watts if that is appropriate for the example. Dave /// If 50 kw were distributed through a spherical surface of 1 mile in radius, what would the power intercepted by one square yard? (arbitrary cross-section value for a 1/4 wave whip...) power times Antenna cross-section / Extended surface area [4/3 pi r squared] = 4 milliwatts Into 50 ohms, that would amount to v^2/50 = 0.004 v^2 = 0.2 v^2 so V = 0.4 volts very roughly.... Brian W And the sensitivity of most receivers is rated in MICRO volts ! ?? Compare with the ultimate sensitivity of the human eye: one quantum in the visible (at low quantum efficiency), but it can stand a fleeting exposure to 1400 watts/meter^2 i.e. direct sunlight That is an extra ordinary range. Brian W |
#5
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"Brian Whatcott" wrote:
... Into 50 ohms, that would amount to v^2/50 = 0.004 v^2 = 0.2 v^2 so V = 0.4 volts very roughly.... Maybe you didn't intend excess details here, but this .4V calc is not the whole story if the receiver is not tuned for a band which includes the offending freq. Even 107.9 FM bleeding over into 108.0 on a VOR receiver will be some decibels down -- the VHF rcvr presumably feeding the antenna input into at least one passive, tuned circuit before meeting up with a semiconductor. And you'll have some loss in the antenna itself at the extreme ends. So maybe .2V tops at 107.9? And 107.9 FM will be way, way down in a comm rcvr's front end, the type of rcvr is at issue here. Fred F. |
#6
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"TaxSrv" wrote in message
... "Brian Whatcott" wrote: ... Into 50 ohms, that would amount to v^2/50 = 0.004 v^2 = 0.2 v^2 so V = 0.4 volts very roughly.... Anybody around here wanna perk up the old johnson, you kin fly across the opening of the blind canyon where Jim Creek radio has it's antennas. Wanttaja went up there once in Moonraker and it turned his hair red. Rich "Light up your life" S. |
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On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 18:05:35 -0700, "Rich S."
wrote: "TaxSrv" wrote in message ... "Brian Whatcott" wrote: ... Into 50 ohms, that would amount to v^2/50 = 0.004 v^2 = 0.2 v^2 so V = 0.4 volts very roughly.... Anybody around here wanna perk up the old johnson, you kin fly across the opening of the blind canyon where Jim Creek radio has it's antennas. Wanttaja went up there once in Moonraker and it turned his hair red. Rich "Light up your life" S. I thought that was a "long wave" antenna.... no effect on short objects... John |
#8
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"Rich S." wrote in message ...
"TaxSrv" wrote in message ... "Brian Whatcott" wrote: ... Into 50 ohms, that would amount to v^2/50 = 0.004 v^2 = 0.2 v^2 so V = 0.4 volts very roughly.... Anybody around here wanna perk up the old johnson, you kin fly across the opening of the blind canyon where Jim Creek radio has it's antennas. Wanttaja went up there once in Moonraker and it turned his hair red. Rich "Light up your life" S. A few years back a buddy of mine was driving past the big USAF base in North Dakota, when they apparently tested *something.* His dash lit up like something out of a Spielberg movie, and the radio never worked again. |
#9
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Brian Whatcott wrote in message . ..
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:17:48 GMT, Dave S wrote: // My question is, given the limited "resistance" of some of the radio components (and the ability to tolerate less than a watt input if I paraphrased it correctly) I am wondering just how much energy the radio system is being exposed to flying by the transmitting elements a mile away laterally, and how prudent that is for the longevity of the components. Lets use 50,000 watts if that is appropriate for the example. Dave You are not the only one who has experienced breakthrough near a big transmitter tower. Here's a rough, rough estimate of intercepted power. If 50 kw were distributed through a spherical surface of 1 mile in radius, what would the power intercepted by one square yard? (arbitrary cross-section value for a 1/4 wave whip...) power times Antenna cross-section / Extended surface area [4/3 pi r squared] = 4 milliwatts Into 50 ohms, that would amount to v^2/50 = 0.004 v^2 = 0.2 v^2 so V = 0.4 volts very roughly.... Brian W Could something similar happen if I get painted by a NEXRAD weather radar? There's one about a quarter mile away from our airport, and every now and then (seemingly random but it only happens in the pattern) a get a quick "fweem" over the intercom... I've noticed it in Cessnas once or twice, and the RV. Some days I don't get it; other days I'll hear it three or four times. |
#10
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In article ,
Brian Whatcott wrote: On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:17:48 GMT, Dave S wrote: // My question is, given the limited "resistance" of some of the radio components (and the ability to tolerate less than a watt input if I paraphrased it correctly) I am wondering just how much energy the radio system is being exposed to flying by the transmitting elements a mile away laterally, and how prudent that is for the longevity of the components. Lets use 50,000 watts if that is appropriate for the example. Dave You are not the only one who has experienced breakthrough near a big transmitter tower. Here's a rough, rough estimate of intercepted power. If 50 kw were distributed through a spherical surface of 1 mile in radius, what would the power intercepted by one square yard? (arbitrary cross-section value for a 1/4 wave whip...) power times Antenna cross-section / Extended surface area [4/3 pi r squared] = 4 milliwatts Correction: surface area of a sphere is 4 pi r squared (volume is 4/3 pi r cubed) 1.294 milliwatts per SQUARE YARD of surface area, at 1 statute mile 0.995 milliwatts per SQUARE YARD of surface area, at 1 nautical mile. 0.995 milliwatts/square yard is the same energy density that a _FIVE_WATT_ transmitter creates at a distance of 20 yards. Does anybody worry about 5 watts @ 20 yards? Assuming you don't have a pacemaker, that is. grin The above is -not- 'fair' to the big transmitter sites, however. It's true, they they are limited to 50kw 'out the back of the transmitter' , *BUT* 'gain' antennas are almost universally deployed by VHF (and above) stations. An 'effective radiated power' in the several _megawatt_ range is not uncommon. One of the stations in downtown Chicago announces itself at at least 8 megawwatts (ERP) -- might be 9 megawatts, memory isn't giving a firm answer on -that- point. grin 8 megawatt ERP is 160 times the effective energy of a 50kw output. Or about 53Mwatt/sq.yd at 1 statute mile (40mw/sq.yd at 1 naut. mi.) Roughly equivalent to a FIFTY WATT transmitter at 40 yards. (many taxicab companies use 30-watt VHF radios in the vehicles, and it usually doesn't affect the FM receiver in the cab itself -- with maybe _two_ yards between the tx and rx antennas.) A typical VHF aircraft antenna is, electrically, about 4/3 of a yard long. if it is 1/4" in diameter, it presents a maximum cross-section of just about 1/100 of 1 square yard. Which, at 100% capture/conversion efficiency would pick up just under 0.5milliwatts of energy. v^2 would be 0.025 -- the peak voltage would be about 0.158 V. Capture/conversion efficiency is nowhere *near* 100%. If it was, there would be a 'dead zone' behind _every_ receiver. 'gain' figures for a 3-element beam antenna suggest that capture efficiency for a single element is on the order of _one_ percent. Which would equate to 5 microwatts of power, and an induced voltage of about 15 millivolts. _Not_ threatening to the 'health' of the equipment, but definitely strong enough to produce enough 'distortion' in a 1st RF amp stage to create enough 'in-band' signal to pass through the rest of the receiver. |
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