Questions on F-4 operations in SEA 1972-73

Recently a mate of mine was shown some information from the SEA
operations. He has asked me to put some questions to the forum.

------

Does any former aircrew or ground crews from F-4 operations have
information or willing to discuss on following topics?

* In assessing a tactical briefing for LB1 it talks about many issues..
is a 30yrs old briefing still classified or declassified? How sensitive
is a briefing folder?

* How was the ingress and tactical formations of F-4D/Es with ALQ-71/72
jamming pods flown for standard missions, LB1/LB2 and for ops in next
door panhandles of Laos and Cambodia used?

* What are the functions on the front stick of the F-4? ...I know the
steering ALCS? button, air refuelling button, trigger for missile, the
trim switch and other one is pickle?

* In examining many survival maps of the 60s intended for SEA use, how
would a downed pilot used one? What would he of looked for and done in
order to evade the NVA?

* Would any of the F-4D/E units stationed at Thailand had any of the
tailcode not painted on the tail and still sent into the combat zone?

He has a fuzzy photo showing a F-4E with slime lights, xx-252??, with a
no tailcode but a white fin tip and no weapons over Hanoi on Christmas
day... rather weird as i have never seen ANY F-4 in SEA in action
without a tailcode.. one could assume the F-4E is tailcodeless due to
intra unit transfer eg USA-CONUS or Asian based and still awaiting the
tailcode painting.

* Did any pilot in SEA when dropping their munitions have any emotional
aspect for the people on the receiving end of their drop?

Thanks

K-2

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:32:18 +1100, Aerophotos
wrote:

Does any former aircrew or ground crews from F-4 operations have
information or willing to discuss on following topics?

* In assessing a tactical briefing for LB1 it talks about many issues..
is a 30yrs old briefing still classified or declassified? How sensitive
is a briefing folder?

Don't know what you mean by a "briefing folder"--Aircrews had "line-up
cards" with spaces for tail #s, crew names, weapons load/release
settings, code-words of the day, coordinates of turn points/targets,
refueling track, etc. Different wings used different formats, aircrews
used them in different ways. Usually also got a map of the area (ONC,
but TPC was available) annotated with defense range arcs, SAM sites,
etc. Black/white 8x10 glossy of the target included. Probably no
longer classified at any level.

* How was the ingress and tactical formations of F-4D/Es with ALQ-71/72
jamming pods flown for standard missions, LB1/LB2 and for ops in next
door panhandles of Laos and Cambodia used?

Typical four-ship spreads with wingmen 1500-2500 feet, 0-30 degrees
back from line abreast. Element 3000-4500 feet spread, stacked 1500
high or low, 0-30 back from line abreast.

Four ship flights in trail, 3-5 minutes. Outrigger pairs of escorts in
A/A configuration.

MigCAP flights in various formats on orbits. Hunter/Killer flights
with Weasels in the lead early and F-4s 6-9000 in trail. F-4s in lead
later doing armed recce with Weasels in trail. Pods off for H/K
flights.

Laos and Cambodia was simple 2 or 4 ships with various spread
parameters. Pods generally not needed.

* What are the functions on the front stick of the F-4? ...I know the
steering ALCS? button, air refuelling button, trigger for missile, the
trim switch and other one is pickle?

Hat button for four-way trim, pickle button for bombs and droppables,
trigger for gun/missiles, side button for air refuel reject, bottom
button for nose-gear steering.

* In examining many survival maps of the 60s intended for SEA use, how
would a downed pilot used one? What would he of looked for and done in
order to evade the NVA?

If in the hills, cover up. If in the flats, kiss your ass good-by and
get used to punkin soup.

* Would any of the F-4D/E units stationed at Thailand had any of the
tailcode not painted on the tail and still sent into the combat zone?

Possible. Tailcodes came in white or black and occasionally were
missing.

He has a fuzzy photo showing a F-4E with slime lights, xx-252??,

Seven years in F-4s and I never heard of "slime lights". Do you mean
photo-luminescent formation strips?

with a
no tailcode but a white fin tip and no weapons over Hanoi on Christmas
day... rather weird as i have never seen ANY F-4 in SEA in action
without a tailcode.. one could assume the F-4E is tailcodeless due to
intra unit transfer eg USA-CONUS or Asian based and still awaiting the
tailcode painting.

Tailcodes were in use at all bases worldwide. You'll see some SJs for
the Seymour-Johnson deployment to Tahkli during LB. No weapons
probably mean the photo came after expenditure. Lack of a tailcode
might simply mean a recent repaint returned from IRAN at Tainan.

* Did any pilot in SEA when dropping their munitions have any emotional
aspect for the people on the receiving end of their drop?

Absolutely. We wanted to kill the *******s that were torturing our
comrades in the Hilton, Plantation, Heartbreak, Dogpatch and other
sites. We hoped maybe to get lucky and get Fonda or Clark or some of
the other sob-sister collalborators. And we wanted to kill the folks
that were trying to kill us. The more the better and the sooner the
war would be won.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

From: Ed Rasimus

snip

Seven years in F-4s and I never heard of "slime lights". Do you mean
photo-luminescent formation strips?


"Slime lights" are the lights you describe. I never heard the term when I was
on F-4s in the 1970s but it was used on the H-60s in the 1980s. I was in the
first Air Force unit, Eglin AFB, to get the H-60 and the term "slime lights"
seems to have come with them so it may be an Army term. Having said that I have
also heard A-10 types call them that too so I may be off base with that guess.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8


Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

On 26 Mar 2004 19:12:34 GMT, (B2431) wrote:

From: Ed Rasimus

snip

Seven years in F-4s and I never heard of "slime lights". Do you mean
photo-luminescent formation strips?


"Slime lights" are the lights you describe. I never heard the term when I was
on F-4s in the 1970s but it was used on the H-60s in the 1980s. I was in the
first Air Force unit, Eglin AFB, to get the H-60 and the term "slime lights"
seems to have come with them so it may be an Army term. Having said that I have
also heard A-10 types call them that too so I may be off base with that guess.

Think it was Eglin around 1968 when I saw them installing the lights
on an F-4 for the first time. I was walking by a hanger and there was
an F-4 inside with air hoses hanging off the aircraft. Basically glue
and then a vacuum applied for something like 24 hours.

Ed Rasimus wrote in message . ..
On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:32:18 +1100, Aerophotos
wrote:

Does any former aircrew or ground crews from F-4 operations have
information or willing to discuss on following topics?

SNIP:

What Ed says goes for me too, all the way, 100%.
Walt BJ

Ed Rasimus wrote:

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:32:18 +1100, Aerophotos
wrote:

* What are the functions on the front stick of the F-4? ...I know the
steering ALCS? button, air refuelling button, trigger for missile, the
trim switch and other one is pickle?

Hat button for four-way trim, pickle button for bombs and droppables,
trigger for gun/missiles, side button for air refuel reject, bottom
button for nose-gear steering.

IFR was also "Cool Start" on early AIM-9s and crap AIM-4Ds;
it would blow the dome cover off an AGM-65 Maverick - and
had a similar function for earlier video-guided weapons.
(Walleye, HOBO, etc.)

On 26 Mar 2004 19:12:34 GMT, (B2431) wrote:

From: Ed Rasimus

snip

Seven years in F-4s and I never heard of "slime lights". Do you mean
photo-luminescent formation strips?


"Slime lights" are the lights you describe. I never heard the term when I was
on F-4s in the 1970s but it was used on the H-60s in the 1980s. I was in the
first Air Force unit, Eglin AFB, to get the H-60 and the term "slime lights"
seems to have come with them so it may be an Army term. Having said that I have
also heard A-10 types call them that too so I may be off base with that guess.



It's an Army term for IR button lights and electroluminescent strips
as seen through NVGs.

John Hairell