Garmin 196: Anyone else dissapointed in the actual ability to capture sats

Like a lot of folks here, I debated between the Garmin 295, 196 and the Anywhere Map from Control Vision. I badly wanted a color
unit but couldn't see buying the 295 because it has to be due for replacement. Witness the nice, non battery eating screens of the
new Street Pilot and the 76C handhelds.

Well, with a little trip coming up, I couldn't wait for the new units to trickle down so I ordered the Anywhere Map. Pretty cool for
$1350 with a cordless and a couple goodies. But then I immediately set about trying to figure out how to keep the thing charged on
an extended trip without getting the cigar lighter reconnected. Double drat, this is dumb, so I cancelled that order and sent for a
196 from Aircraft Spruce.

It is still cold here so I was playing with the thing in the house and didn't expect it to work inside. Finally after attempting to
use the unit in the car, I became suspicious when I did 6 touch and goes and in spite of pretty good initial readings, it only
recorded 2 flights 1/10hr out of the 6. So I started comparing the performance to my 6 year old GPS II+.

As it turns out, the 196 works pretty darn good with the remote antenna. Almost but not quite as good as the 6 year old II+.

As it also turns out, I can get the sats better with binocs than it does with the stick antenna. Example: this morning, I tried both
units one in each hand this morning, the old handheld had a 3D lock and 6 birds almost full scale in 45 seconds. The 196 had only
2 -1/2 scale open bars after 3 minutes and showed no signs of acquiring more. I had to leave for work and still no lock.

Is this as good as I can expect? The Garmin guy I talked to said the stick should work as well but didn't seem to interested that it
didn't work out that way.

Incidentally, from the top of a 12 story building yesterday, it had 6 sats but took over 15 minutes before it found WAAS on one on
the stick. With the remote it had a D on all 6 in a couple minutes and almost full scale.

Mike Z

"Mike Z." wrote:
Is this as good as I can expect? The Garmin guy I talked to said the
stick should work as well but didn't seem to interested that it
didn't work out that way.

Incidentally, from the top of a 12 story building yesterday, it had 6
sats but took over 15 minutes before it found WAAS on one on
the stick. With the remote it had a D on all 6 in a couple minutes
and almost full scale.

This has been my experience with all three Garmin portables I have
owned. The remote, amplified antenna works much better than the "stick"
antenna.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

In a previous article, "Mike Z." said:
6 birds almost full scale in 45 seconds. The 196 had only
2 -1/2 scale open bars after 3 minutes and showed no signs of acquiring
more. I had to leave for work and still no lock.

If your GPS hasn't gotten a full ephermeris data in a certain time (a
couple of weeks I think), it will take 15 minutes to download a new one.
This is true of every GPS unit - it takes 15 minutes to download it
because that's how long it takes to transmit it.

Thus, if you haven't used your GPS recently, it would be a good idea to
turn it on and stick it on your front lawn or car's dashboard for 15-20
minutes the day before you have to use it.

It sounds very much from your description the first time you only left it
on for 3 minutes, so you didn't get full ephemeris, and so the next time
when you did leave it on long enough (15 minutes), it got the full
ephemeris. I bet if you use it again soon it won't take anywhere near as
long.

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
....life suddenly made much more sense, the day I fully grokked that people
are stupid.
-- Frank Sweetser

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 13:27:31 GMT, "Mike Z."
wrote:

Like a lot of folks here, I debated between the Garmin 295, 196 and the Anywhere Map from Control Vision. I badly wanted a color
unit but couldn't see buying the 295 because it has to be due for replacement. Witness the nice, non battery eating screens of the
new Street Pilot and the 76C handhelds.

Well, with a little trip coming up, I couldn't wait for the new units to trickle down so I ordered the Anywhere Map. Pretty cool for
$1350 with a cordless and a couple goodies. But then I immediately set about trying to figure out how to keep the thing charged on
an extended trip without getting the cigar lighter reconnected. Double drat, this is dumb, so I cancelled that order and sent for a
196 from Aircraft Spruce.

It is still cold here so I was playing with the thing in the house and didn't expect it to work inside. Finally after attempting to
use the unit in the car, I became suspicious when I did 6 touch and goes and in spite of pretty good initial readings, it only
recorded 2 flights 1/10hr out of the 6. So I started comparing the performance to my 6 year old GPS II+.

As it turns out, the 196 works pretty darn good with the remote antenna. Almost but not quite as good as the 6 year old II+.

As it also turns out, I can get the sats better with binocs than it does with the stick antenna. Example: this morning, I tried both
units one in each hand this morning, the old handheld had a 3D lock and 6 birds almost full scale in 45 seconds. The 196 had only
2 -1/2 scale open bars after 3 minutes and showed no signs of acquiring more. I had to leave for work and still no lock.

Is this as good as I can expect? The Garmin guy I talked to said the stick should work as well but didn't seem to interested that it
didn't work out that way.

Incidentally, from the top of a 12 story building yesterday, it had 6 sats but took over 15 minutes before it found WAAS on one on
the stick. With the remote it had a D on all 6 in a couple minutes and almost full scale.

I find it hard to believe that Garmin's latest model (the 196) has a
substantially longer lock time than the GPS II+. Processor technology
has increased substantially so the 196 should have significantly more
horsepower to search for satellites.

I suspect that due to the newness of the 196, it did not have an
almanac downloaded. Downloading an almanac takes at least ~15
minutes, and can take several attempts if there is poor reception
during the download process.

Without an almanac, the GPS does not know which satellite PRNs to
track. Therefore it randomly searches for PRNs until it finds one -
this can take much longer to lock onto a full set of satellites from a
cold start.

A better comparison would be to leave both GPSs on for several hours,
then switch the GPSs off, then try the lock time comparison.

-Nathan

I appreciate the attempts to cure the problem. Interestingly enough, the little cheapy is the one that had been off for weeks and
locked the first try in 30 seconds. The 196 had been on with a 3D fix a couple times for 15-30 minutes for sure.....

Any actual 196 users want to weigh in.

Mike Z

"Nathan Young" wrote in message ...
..stuff snipped

A better comparison would be to leave both GPSs on for several hours,
then switch the GPSs off, then try the lock time comparison.

-Nathan

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 15:13:09 GMT, "Mike Z."
wrote:

I appreciate the attempts to cure the problem. Interestingly enough, the little cheapy is the one that had been off for weeks and
locked the first try in 30 seconds. The 196 had been on with a 3D fix a couple times for 15-30 minutes for sure.....

Any actual 196 users want to weigh in.


Almanacs are good for a few months, so the GPS II+ probably had a good
one.

FWIW, I start my G-295 shortly after engine start, and it locks
3D-WAAS in under a minute. However, this is with the remote antenna.

-Nathan

When I put my stick antenna from my III Pilot on my 196 it locks much faster
and the signal strength of the satellites is almost double per satellite.
Time to lock is reduced to half of the original mfr provided stick.

External antenna works fine.

I intend to call Garmin before warranty runs out and return the original
antenna for a replacement.

Ron A.


"Mike Z." wrote in message
hlink.net...
I appreciate the attempts to cure the problem. Interestingly enough, the
little cheapy is the one that had been off for weeks and
locked the first try in 30 seconds. The 196 had been on with a 3D fix a
couple times for 15-30 minutes for sure.....

Any actual 196 users want to weigh in.

Mike Z

"Nathan Young" wrote in message
...
..stuff snipped

A better comparison would be to leave both GPSs on for several hours,
then switch the GPSs off, then try the lock time comparison.

-Nathan

Just a minor point... The "signal strength" bars are actually data
reliability indicators... So, a satellite that is relatively weak but the
signal is stable and you are getting a solid data stream recovery will show
a high "signal strength". A satellite that is stronger but having a lower
reliability of the data string for various reasons will show less "signal
strength"...

The only analogy I can think of at this moment is listening to someone
whispering to you from across a silent room, perfectly audible - versus a
rock concert where someone can scream at you from 2 feet away and still not
be understood...
denny

"Ron A." wrote in message
...
When I put my stick antenna from my III Pilot on my 196 it locks much
faster
and the signal strength of the satellites is almost double per satellite.

I have had the Garmin GPS Pilot III for about 5 years now. It sits on
the glareshield, boots up in less than a minute and never loses its
position. I never bothered with the remote antenna as there was no
reason too.



Mike Z. wrote:

Like a lot of folks here, I debated between the Garmin 295, 196 and the Anywhere Map from Control Vision. I badly wanted a color
unit but couldn't see buying the 295 because it has to be due for replacement. Witness the nice, non battery eating screens of the
new Street Pilot and the 76C handhelds.

Well, with a little trip coming up, I couldn't wait for the new units to trickle down so I ordered the Anywhere Map. Pretty cool for
$1350 with a cordless and a couple goodies. But then I immediately set about trying to figure out how to keep the thing charged on
an extended trip without getting the cigar lighter reconnected. Double drat, this is dumb, so I cancelled that order and sent for a
196 from Aircraft Spruce.

It is still cold here so I was playing with the thing in the house and didn't expect it to work inside. Finally after attempting to
use the unit in the car, I became suspicious when I did 6 touch and goes and in spite of pretty good initial readings, it only
recorded 2 flights 1/10hr out of the 6. So I started comparing the performance to my 6 year old GPS II+.

As it turns out, the 196 works pretty darn good with the remote antenna. Almost but not quite as good as the 6 year old II+.

As it also turns out, I can get the sats better with binocs than it does with the stick antenna. Example: this morning, I tried both
units one in each hand this morning, the old handheld had a 3D lock and 6 birds almost full scale in 45 seconds. The 196 had only
2 -1/2 scale open bars after 3 minutes and showed no signs of acquiring more. I had to leave for work and still no lock.

Is this as good as I can expect? The Garmin guy I talked to said the stick should work as well but didn't seem to interested that it
didn't work out that way.

Incidentally, from the top of a 12 story building yesterday, it had 6 sats but took over 15 minutes before it found WAAS on one on
the stick. With the remote it had a D on all 6 in a couple minutes and almost full scale.

Mike Z

My tests were same physical location, same physical orientation of unit and
myself, and only alternately testing both stick antenna's.

The same satellites, view of sky, and obstructions were present. My test
was conducted multiple times and repeatable. I assume they are both passive
designs so current draw for amplification would not be an issue. My III
Pilot was purchased in 1998 so it wasn't new equipment by any means.

The reason I did this is because using the auto kit in my minivan, it would
take 5+ minutes to lock sometimes. I always use the external antenna when
flying. I get lock before I turn the corner on my block with the III Pilot
stick antenna.


I have also found another quirk. Only in our club's 172 (other planes are
fine) after flying for a while and only when I change the frequency to 119.4
to talk to tower, I lose all satellites until I park the plane and get fuel
after the radios cool down. I think I have solved that by not putting the
antenna over the center of the radio stack on the glareshield. Our A&P
looked at me like I was nuts. That is why I bought the 196, but it did it
with that also. It appears to be a Narco problem. I just thought the III
Pilot was getting old and unreliable when I needed it the most to line up
with the runway.

I have since sold my III Pilot.

Ron Anderson


"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...
Just a minor point... The "signal strength" bars are actually data
reliability indicators... So, a satellite that is relatively weak but the
signal is stable and you are getting a solid data stream recovery will show
a high "signal strength". A satellite that is stronger but having a lower
reliability of the data string for various reasons will show less "signal
strength"...

The only analogy I can think of at this moment is listening to someone
whispering to you from across a silent room, perfectly audible - versus a
rock concert where someone can scream at you from 2 feet away and still not
be understood...
denny

"Ron A." wrote in message
...
When I put my stick antenna from my III Pilot on my 196 it locks much
faster
and the signal strength of the satellites is almost double per satellite.