Club Class vs. Sports Class

Todd -

I like your last answer (about practical solutions) and it sounds like
we've got very similar ideas, so I don't want to be antagonistic
here... but a couple of minor bits of "food for thought" for everyone:

Budget for prep is very different than budget for glider purchase. *I
want a class that a $20,000-$50,000 glider can have a reasonable
chance of winning in.

You talk about this and you talk about One-Design sailboat races.
Have you heard about the World Class Glider competitions or the 1-26
Association? :-)

I also wonder about that budget range... That would include an LS-6 or
an SZD-55, and I think those are pretty competitive machines aren't
they? How about an ASW-20 or an LS-4 or a Discus b/c? And if its
true from the post above about a Twin-Astir and an LS-3 winning
recently, then those are two concrete examples of a glider in the $20k
- $50k budget range that can win under the current system.

That was a real situation in a real contest, if the intention is not
to fairly score the contest, why did we have scoring ?

The intention is to score the competition as fairly as possible within
reasonable bounds. My point is that at a certain level you just have
to understand that the guy in an ASK-14 is at a disadvantage no matter
what you do - and he can't expect to compete on a serious or high
level with that equipment. A lot of the arguments I hear about the
new handicap class is to "internationalize" it and allow for US Team
selection and all that jazz - that implies competition at a high
level, and I'm just making the point that high-level competition
demands good equipment. I return to my argument that trying to cater
to the minority with the worst equipment will be harmful to the
majority in the long run.

I want the rules simple, a small handicap spread allows use of a
simple system such as we have today. *Allowing any glider into the
scoring, *(Nimbus vs 1-26) *breaks the simple handicap system.

Right, but there's no way to be inclusive and encourage all
participation and drive up numbers and attract new folks - yet exclude
specific ships or have ultra-complicated handicapping systems that try
to take too many factors into account.

BTW, one minor point: You use the term "fair scoring" several times.
I haven't even competed yet, but I've looked at the handicaps on the
web and they seem reasonably fair to me. My experience with auto-
racing is that the more complicated you make the handicap, the more
factors people point to and whine about being "unfair". It would be
great if we could come up with _perfect_ scoring (I think the better
term for what is desired) that only takes pilot skill into account...
But unfortunately I just don't think its practical.

....Will be interesting to see all of this play out!

Take care,

--Noel

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 11:49:33 -0700, cornay wrote:

I encourage everyone to realize that, when considering the matter at
hand, we realize it does not necessitate an "either/or" conclusion:
Sports Class and Club Class can coexist. The support of a Club Class
here in the U.S. is NOT ipso facto the death of Sports Class.

Noel, another data point: Club Class is built round lower performance
gliders because, as I understand it, it was dreamt up as a way to let
owners of older gliders compete on a more or less even footing, while
those flying modern aircraft can fly in Standard, 15m Racing, 18m and
Open classes. I don't think cost came into the Club thinking though, of
course typically Club gliders are cheaper.

I don't understand how Sport class is used in the US, but in the UK all
gliders are handicapped so that the national ladder isn't a nonsense.
This handicap has another use too. My club runs a Regionals which is
split into Club and Sport classes on the glider handicap. This is done
precisely to avoid the 1-26 vs Nimbus problem and to make the handicap
setter's task possible. Before you ask, we do indeed have everything from
Libelles to ASH-25s and Nimbus 3s entering the Regionals.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Sep 23, 5:17*pm, wrote:
On Sep 23, 1:29*pm, toad wrote:





On Sep 23, 3:47*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:

On Sep 23, 11:35*am, toad wrote:

But long time pilots that fly low level equipment must be able to win,
if they are flying the best at that contest.

Todd -

This is where I probably break from the pack and earn a few enemies:
I completely disagree with you on this. *I used to make the same
argument you are using, back in my auto-racing days. I fought mightily
for rules to allow anyone with any budget to have an equal shot at
winning. *And as someone who's worked in the games and entertainment
industry I also used to strive for that kind of equality in things
like collectible card games where more money can make a big
difference...

But the bottom-line is that I've never ever seen a successful program
that makes someone's budget irrelevant. *And many of the attempts to
do so have been big failures that have had negative impacts on the
whole sport or competition that they were designed to help.

I'm all for simple and reasonable efforts to make the competition fair
- but there's no way to make it 100% level across all equipment and to
force the guy with the fat wallet to compete with no more advantage
than the guy on a shoestring - and I say this as someone who's usually
competing on a shoestring! :-P

Budget for prep is very different than budget for glider purchase. *I
want a class that a $20,000-$50,000 glider can have a reasonable
chance of winning in.

Prep work is mostly sweat equity and cleverness, not money.

The "Nimbus 3 vs. ASK-14" thing is ridiculous. *People love to make
comparisons like this, but again this is a SPORT and this is

That was a real situation in a real contest, if the intention is not
to fairly score the contest, why did we have scoring ?

COMPETITON; at a National level in some of these cases/arguments. *If
you put a high value on winning then you need to make the sacrifices
and choices in your life to compete at the highest possible level. *If

I want a fairly run, level contest for me and my regional flying
friends, I don't really care about the national top level stuff.

you cannot compete at the absolute top level because of your budget,
then you do the best you can and you take the satisfaction that you
can get out of doing more with less... *But screwing up the majority
of the racers just so a couple of people at the lowest level can
theoretically do better than people at the highest levels is wrong.
Don't target the slim majority at the top OR the bottom - target the
middle and upper-middle ranges, the majority of your competitors. *If
they're reasonably competitive against each other, then your system is
doing what it is supposed to do.

Look at an individual sport like Bowling or Golf: *Do you really think
that the handicap there makes everyone play at the same level? *What
about the guy who can afford better clubs or a custom-drilled bowling-
ball? *Does the handicap take that into account? *No! *There are
plenty of other examples of this, in sports that are highly successful
and have plenty of participation... *These "unfair" sports haven't
stopped rookies from trying the sport or attempting to move up in
skill and equipment over time - why should it stop glider pilots?

There are lots of sports that effectively cap the amount of money that
will improve your score through equipment limits. *One design sailboat
classes exist that allow you to be competitive for much less than a
$10,000 purchase price.

The problem is that the handicapping should really depend on the
weather conditions, a single number handicap only works well within a
small range of handicaps. *Especially for a weather driven sport.

Except that the exact combination of weather conditions is always
changing and never exactly identical. *That's one of the reasons this
sport is so challenging, afterall! *So how do you come up with
standards or metrics on something like that? *And don't think that it
only matters for gliders with hugely different performance numbers...
My DG-300 came with big ballast bags; does that mean I should have a
worse handicap than a DG-300 with small ballast bags on strong days?
Or what if specific conditions favor a DuoDiscus over a DG-1000? *Or a
DG-1000T over a Duo X but NOT a DG-1000 over a standard Duo? *How
finely do you want to slice this, and how insanely complicated do you
end up making the rules as a result?

I want the rules simple, a small handicap spread allows use of a
simple system such as we have today. *Allowing any glider into the
scoring, *(Nimbus vs 1-26) *breaks the simple handicap system.

I return to my original argument: *You handicap to give folks in
various equipment with equivalent skills a SHOT at doing well. *And
you hold the competition over multiple days to try to average out the
weather and the luck factor - that's the way its ALWAYS been (even
before handicapped classes).

Take care,

--Noel

Todd Smith- Hide quoted text -

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I don't think I could support a system that, as a practical matter,
exclued pilots from being able to compete in a regionals becasue of
the kind of glider thay own. Nimbuses fly in Sports typically because
there is no Open Class offered and they guys who own SparrowHawks and
Russias, well, Sports is all they've got.

In my experience the ships out at the edges of the handicap list only
rarely end up at the top of the scorsheet over the course of a
contest. The guys with high handicaps are likely to be at a big
disadvantage on one or more days and the guys with really low
handicaps generally have trouble beating the field by that much,
between gaggle flying and tasking for the average glider that makes it
hard to break away by a lot on a consistent basis. The only case I can
recall, the Twin Astir this year, Nick did an extraordinary job of
flying. Was it enough to beat KS on the basis of pure piloting? - I
dunno, but I didn't hear a lot of complaining and there were plenty of
races between much more closely matched gliders down the scoresheet
where I'm sure the handicap made the difference in placing.

Honestly, if I got beat in a contest by an ASK-14 it tip my hat to the
pilot - handicap or not. That's gutsy.

9B- Hide quoted text -

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We all tipped our hats when Bill Batesole whupped everybody one day a
couple years ago
in his ASK-14. Good lift- not much wind- and he CREAMED us. Then he
fell back when he missed a ridge
gap crossing- Ah Well.
I took a quick look at what was flown in the last 12 Sports Nats.
Roughly 40% of the gliders competing were in the currently
contemplated group set by the USTC for "club class" team selection. 5
contests were won by club class gliders, 2 by long wingers (Duos) ,4
by current production ships(ASW-27(2) and LS-8(2), and 1 by a Foka.
It should also be noted that the rules specifically call for tasking
which is set based on the performance range of the "club" ships. The
low performance and high performance guys gotta take their chances.
FWIW
UH

We all tipped our hats when Bill Batesole whupped everybody one day a
couple years ago
in his ASK-14. Good lift- not much wind- and he CREAMED us. Then he
fell back when he missed a ridge

This is where handicapping offers no help at all to a pilot flying a
"low" performance glider. I regulary fly XC competativley with my
friends out of AWO. I am flying a 13m Apis and everyone else is in 15m
or bigger span ships. I do pretty well but do find my tactics are very
different to keep me from driving myself into some farmers field when
long glides are required or the Q and ridges are spaced just of of
reach.

Somedays there is just no way I am willing to push the extra bit, but
I am sure I could be succesful if I was flying a longer span ship.

That being said, regardless of handicaps and such, I doubt I would be
inclined to shell out a bunch of money to buy an approved logger and
what ever else is required, then spend more money on entry fees etc
when I can fly with my local buddies and have a great time.

Bet I am not alone in this.

Brad

On Sep 23, 4:11 pm, wrote:

Help me out here. As a pr[a]ctical matter what are the alternatives?
Sure, any handicapping system is imperfect, but for example, if you
look at the last four Sports Class competitions at Parowan the top of
the podium has been claimed by a Duo twice, an LS-3 and a Twin Astir.
If I understand correctly only the LS-3 would have been allowed under
Club Class rules. So what class would those other pilots fly?

Non qualified Club Class gliders would still compete in Sports Class--
nothing changes.
Remember, this doesn't have to be an "either/or" scenario.

The Duos would have to fly Open if there was one and the Twin would be SOL.

"Open" Class = open to *any* glider.
Non-Club gliders are always "qualified" for Sports Class.

There were also a number of ASW-27, D2, V2 class ships in sports,
usually flown by new (or "low key") competition pilots. Presumably
they would have to fly an FAI class or drop out if that was too
intimidating.

No, they could still participate in Sports Class.

Under the scenario where you offer both Sports and Club classes,
pilots would divide up, some who are eligible for Club might fly
Sports, bit the mix of ships in Sports would most likely be a few low-
performance gliders and a bunch of current generation ships - which
only accentuates the issues associated with handicaps, but more
importantly splits the field, making it less fun IMHO.

Having to task a Sports Class event is a function of the performance
capability of the lowest performing glider, no matter what the highest
performing glider is and regardless of how many gliders are in
between.

Splits the field/less fun: Having to fly to the back of the TP area
on short tasks every day, no matter what, because the limitations of a
1-26/L-13/Twin Astir entrant must be considered in tasking all but
erases all else's enroute strategy options--now that's no fun.

The thought of scoring Club Class within Sports Class seems appealing,
but I'm not sure I see much benefit. If a guy flying a Twin Astir
wins, why would you exclude him (or her) from Club Class seeding?

Because a Twin Astir is not a WGC Club Class designated glider. If
the U.S. intends to send a Club Class team over to compete on the
world stage, why should not we chose that team from a process using
Club Class gliders under Club Class rules? Does it make any sense to
pick a dirt track champion to race F-1 in the Monaco Grand Prix?

And if a guy flying the latest generation ship wins, it seems a stretch to
me to award a trophy to someone who may have finished well down the
scoresheet just because his ship is on a list of Club Class gliders.

Not "either/or"...Not "either/or""...Not "either/or""...Not "either/
or""...Not "either/or"…

A Sports winner and a Club winner. Different tasking, competing
simultaneously.
-The new guys can do Sports.
-The older guys wanting shorter tasks can do Sports.
-The guy who wants to give rides can do Sports.
-The guy in the hot ship can do Sports (though I really don’t think
that was the intent).
-The guy flying a kite can do Sports.
However,
-Those flying Club Class designated gliders who want to compete flying
more challenging courses against like aircraft (thus inducing a small
spread in handicap range) thereby making it a function of less the
plane and more the pilot, can--*and want*--to do Club Class.

Holding a Club Class race within a Sports Class event takes nothing
away from the Sports Class participants. On the other hand, forcing
Club Class gliders to the U.S. Sports Class intentions does, under
certain circumstances, take away from WGC Club Class intentions.

The great thing about Sports Class is its inclusiveness. While it has
its warts, I think it works pretty well overall in allowing pilots to
compete no matter[y] what ship they fly.

Granted. But I don't see how allowing those wishing to compete as a
Club Class takes anything away from Sports Class any more so than,
say. World Class or the 1-26 Ass'n takes away from Sports Class.

HIgh Thermals,

Ray Cornay
LS-4 RD

That says it all. Thanks Ray. Sam




At 00:29 24 September 2008, wrote:

On Sep 23, 4:11 pm, wrote:

Help me out here. As a pr[a]ctical matter what are the alternatives?
Sure, any handicapping system is imperfect, but for example, if you
look at the last four Sports Class competitions at Parowan the top of
the podium has been claimed by a Duo twice, an LS-3 and a Twin Astir.
If I understand correctly only the LS-3 would have been allowed under
Club Class rules. So what class would those other pilots fly?

Non qualified Club Class gliders would still compete in Sports Class--
nothing changes.
Remember, this doesn't have to be an "either/or" scenario.

The Duos would have to fly Open if there was one and the Twin would be
SO=
L.

"Open" Class =3D open to *any* glider.
Non-Club gliders are always "qualified" for Sports Class.

There were also a number of ASW-27, D2, V2 class ships in sports,
usually flown by new (or "low key") competition pilots. Presumably
they would have to fly an FAI class or drop out if that was too
intimidating.

No, they could still participate in Sports Class.

Under the scenario where you offer both Sports and Club classes,
pilots would divide up, some who are eligible for Club might fly
Sports, bit the mix of ships in Sports would most likely be a few low-
performance gliders and a bunch of current generation ships - which
only accentuates the issues associated with handicaps, but more
importantly splits the field, making it less fun IMHO.

Having to task a Sports Class event is a function of the performance
capability of the lowest performing glider, no matter what the highest
performing glider is and regardless of how many gliders are in
between.

Splits the field/less fun: Having to fly to the back of the TP area
on short tasks every day, no matter what, because the limitations of a
1-26/L-13/Twin Astir entrant must be considered in tasking all but
erases all else's enroute strategy options--now that's no fun.

The thought of scoring Club Class within Sports Class seems appealing,
but I'm not sure I see much benefit. If a guy flying a Twin Astir
wins, why would you exclude him (or her) from Club Class seeding?

Because a Twin Astir is not a WGC Club Class designated glider. If
the U.S. intends to send a Club Class team over to compete on the
world stage, why should not we chose that team from a process using
Club Class gliders under Club Class rules? Does it make any sense to
pick a dirt track champion to race F-1 in the Monaco Grand Prix?

And if a guy flying the latest generation ship wins, it seems a
stretch
t=
o
me to award a trophy to someone who may have finished well down the
scoresheet just because his ship is on a list of Club Class gliders.

Not "either/or"...Not "either/or""...Not "either/or""...Not
"either/
or""...Not "either/or"=85

A Sports winner and a Club winner. Different tasking, competing
simultaneously.
-The new guys can do Sports.
-The older guys wanting shorter tasks can do Sports.
-The guy who wants to give rides can do Sports.
-The guy in the hot ship can do Sports (though I really don=92t think
that was the intent).
-The guy flying a kite can do Sports.
However,
-Those flying Club Class designated gliders who want to compete flying
more challenging courses against like aircraft (thus inducing a small
spread in handicap range) thereby making it a function of less the
plane and more the pilot, can--*and want*--to do Club Class.

Holding a Club Class race within a Sports Class event takes nothing
away from the Sports Class participants. On the other hand, forcing
Club Class gliders to the U.S. Sports Class intentions does, under
certain circumstances, take away from WGC Club Class intentions.

The great thing about Sports Class is its inclusiveness. While it has
its warts, I think it works pretty well overall in allowing pilots to
compete no matter[y] what ship they fly.

Granted. But I don't see how allowing those wishing to compete as a
Club Class takes anything away from Sports Class any more so than,
say. World Class or the 1-26 Ass'n takes away from Sports Class.

HIgh Thermals,

Ray Cornay
LS-4 RD

On Sep 23, 5:28*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
Todd -

I like your last answer (about practical solutions) and it sounds like
we've got very similar ideas, so I don't want to be antagonistic
here... but a couple of minor bits of "food for thought" for everyone:

Budget for prep is very different than budget for glider purchase. *I
want a class that a $20,000-$50,000 glider can have a reasonable
chance of winning in.

You talk about this and you talk about One-Design sailboat races.
Have you heard about the World Class Glider competitions or the 1-26
Association? *:-)

I also wonder about that budget range... That would include an LS-6 or
an SZD-55, and I think those are pretty competitive machines aren't
they? *How about an ASW-20 or an LS-4 or a Discus b/c? *And if its
true from the post above about a Twin-Astir and an LS-3 winning
recently, then those are two concrete examples of a glider in the $20k
- $50k budget range that can win under the current system.

That was a real situation in a real contest, if the intention is not
to fairly score the contest, why did we have scoring ?

The intention is to score the competition as fairly as possible within
reasonable bounds. *My point is that at a certain level you just have
to understand that the guy in an ASK-14 is at a disadvantage no matter
what you do - and he can't expect to compete on a serious or high
level with that equipment. *A lot of the arguments I hear about the
new handicap class is to "internationalize" it and allow for US Team
selection and all that jazz - that implies competition at a high
level, and I'm just making the point that high-level competition
demands good equipment. *I return to my argument that trying to cater
to the minority with the worst equipment will be harmful to the
majority in the long run.

I want the rules simple, a small handicap spread allows use of a
simple system such as we have today. *Allowing any glider into the
scoring, *(Nimbus vs 1-26) *breaks the simple handicap system.

Right, but there's no way to be inclusive and encourage all
participation and drive up numbers and attract new folks - yet exclude
specific ships or have ultra-complicated handicapping systems that try
to take too many factors into account.

BTW, one minor point: *You use the term "fair scoring" several times.
I haven't even competed yet, but I've looked at the handicaps on the
web and they seem reasonably fair to me. *My experience with auto-
racing is that the more complicated you make the handicap, the more
factors people point to and whine about being "unfair". *It would be
great if we could come up with _perfect_ scoring (I think the better
term for what is desired) that only takes pilot skill into account...
But unfortunately I just don't think its practical.

...Will be interesting to see all of this play out!

Take care,

--Noel

Noel,

I seem to not be explaining myself well about the handicap system that
I want. I want a simple 1 number system like we currently use. But
that only works well when the handicap range is small. That's why I
would like the club class. I also would like the club class so that
the tasking could be set at the same level of difficulty as the
standard / 15m / etc classes. Currently sports rules specify easier
tasking than the other "big boy" classes.

I just recognize that we don't have the numbers to have both the
sports and the club class.

And there is a "perfect" scoring system. Have everybody fly the same
glider :-) No handicaps needed. Please do a groups.google.com
search on this group to see why the current world class didn't work
out so well the last time. Please do not discuss this in this
thread. Do the search, you'll see why.


Todd
3S

On Sep 23, 5:29*pm, wrote:
On Sep 23, 4:11 pm, wrote:


Non qualified Club Class gliders would still compete in Sports Class--
nothing changes.
Remember, this doesn't have to be an "either/or" scenario.

The Duos would have to fly Open if there was one and the Twin would be SOL.

"Open" Class = open to *any* glider.
Non-Club gliders are always "qualified" for Sports Class.

Only if you do both Club and Sports - which will be a numbers problem
in many regionals

Having to task a Sports Class event is a function of the performance
capability of the lowest performing glider, no matter what the highest
performing glider is and regardless of how many gliders are in
between.

That's why Sports Class is all TAT and MAT tasks so everyone can fly
the same task irrespective of performance. With 11 turnpoints and 30
mile radii this should never be a problem. Maybe we need to train CDs
better.

Splits the field/less fun: *Having to fly to the back of the TP area
on short tasks every day, no matter what, because the limitations of a
1-26/L-13/Twin Astir entrant must be considered in tasking all but
erases all else's enroute strategy options--now that's no fun.

I understand your point but disagree that this is an issue unless the
CD is indifferent to the issue. The 2005 Parowan Sports Nationals has
a Nimbus 4, a Nimbus 3, a PW-6 and a Russia. The Regionals in 2004,
2007 and 2008 had similar mixes. The guys flying the low performance
gliders got around pretty much every day but also knew they were going
to be both challenged and at a disadvantage. Again, under Sports
Class rules all the tasks are TAT/MAT so with the right tasking this
should never be a problem. If you can make it work in the west you can
make it work anywhere. Also, under your suggestion, the Nimbus 4 and
Russia are still in Sports class together, so it doesn't seem like
you've improved things for the guys who will feel it the most.


Because a Twin Astir is not a WGC Club Class designated glider. *If
the U.S. intends to send a Club Class team over to compete on the
world stage, why should not we chose that team from a process using
Club Class gliders under Club Class rules? *Does it make any sense to
pick a dirt track champion to race F-1 in the Monaco Grand Prix?

I think the facts belie this argument. Just look at the 2005 Sports
Nationals by way of example. It was not oversubscribed, yet less than
a dozen of the 48 competitors flew club class ships. You have to go
down to 15th place to fill out the podium for Club Class - I'm not
sure that's the best way to pick a world team member. Honestly I don't
think the piloting skills to make and ASW-20 go fast are closer to
those needed for a Libelle than for an ASW-27 - probably the opposite.
So, there's no point in excluding top pilots from consideration for
the team in club class just because they don't have access to an older
generation ship.

The issue is that outside the US clubs have lots of current-1 and -2
generation ships that are available to fly and race and so the class
is well filled out and competitive. That's not as true in the US, so
Club Class is more a function of private owners who race those ships
and the numbers are much smaller. I think splitting Club and Sports
and trying to run both will lead to a less competitive club class team
selection and a less robust sports class.


Not "either/or"...Not "either/or""...Not "either/or""...Not "either/
or""...Not "either/or"…

I understand - re-read my last post. I covered both the scenario where
you did Club instead of Sports as well as the scenario where you did
Club in addition to Sports.

A Sports winner and a Club winner. *Different tasking, *competing
simultaneously.
-The new guys can do Sports.
-The older guys wanting shorter tasks can do Sports.
-The guy who wants to give rides can do Sports.
-The guy in the hot ship can do Sports (though I really don’t think
that was the intent).
The guy flying a kite can do Sports.

You just argued for 75-85% of the guys currently flying Sports to keep
flying Sports. This means a small Club Class at most contests and
potentially more gaming by guys who want to fish for a trophy by
flying in the class with 4 gliders in it. You already see some of this
in 15M vs 18M class.

However,
-Those flying Club Class designated gliders who want to compete flying
more challenging courses against like aircraft (thus inducing a small
spread in handicap range) thereby making it a function of less the
plane and more the pilot, can--*and want*--to do Club Class.

I just don't agree. The guys with the extreme high and low handicaps
aren't typically high on the scoresheet, so what we're talking about
here is should an ASW-27 be permitted to fly against an ASW-20. Go
fly against Rick Culbertson in his -20 and you'll see that the pilot
matters a lot more than you might think - even without a handicap. One
thing I could see is encouraging pilots in current generation gliders
with seeding points above, say 80, to fly in an FAI class.


Holding a Club Class race within a Sports Class event takes nothing
away from the Sports Class participants. *On the other hand, forcing
Club Class gliders to the U.S. Sports Class intentions does, under
certain circumstances, take away from WGC Club Class intentions.

Again, I don't really agree. I think the main point is to try to get a
full field of competitors. Splitting up a field of 10 Sports class
competitors in a typical regionals into 4 Club Class and 6 Sports
Class just means than all but one Club Class pilots make the podium.
Good if your objective is to get a medal, but bad if you want to
determine who the best pilot is.


The great thing about Sports Class is its inclusiveness. While it has
its warts, I think it works pretty well overall in allowing pilots to
compete no matter[y] what ship they fly.

Granted. *But I don't see how allowing those wishing to compete as a
Club Class takes anything away from Sports Class any more so than,
say. World Class or the 1-26 Ass'n takes away from Sports Class.

It only takes away by driving the number of competitors in a class
down by 50% on average. I think a good exercise would be to go back
through all the sports class scoresheets for the last couple of years
and divide them into club class qualified and the remainder, just to
see what we get in terms of numbers and what it would have meant for
seeding points. My guess it that the guys flying club class gliders
will see their points go up on average, not because of handicaps, but
because of less competition.

My 2 cents.

9B

9B said:

The issue is that outside the US clubs have lots of current-1 and -2
generation ships that are available to fly and race and so the class
is well filled out and competitive. That's not as true in the US, so
Club Class is more a function of private owners who race those ships
and the numbers are much smaller. I think splitting Club and Sports
and trying to run both will lead to a less competitive club class team
selection and a less robust sports class.


I'm surprised it took so long for someone to make this excellent point
- thanks Andy!

Gliding is much more a club-based activity in Europe and the rest of
the world than it is in the USA, where it tends to be more of an
individual sport. Here, a pilot is more likely to fly his own ship at
a commercial FBO than fly a club ship at a private gliderport. With a
much smaller number of truly club-class ships, I doubt that club class
will ever be really viable in the USA.

As weatherman, I also helped the Task Committee at this year's Region
9 in Parowan. Sports Class was extremely diverse, with everything
from an ultralight Sparrowhawk to a Duo Discus. Nevertheless, the
Committee managed to set tasks that challenged every one of the
competitors. I heard no complaints about tasks being either too easy
or too difficult.

I have personally learned a lot by flying tasks with pilots who are
far better than I am. I'll never catch them, of course, - I'm just
not good enough - but I have improved my cross-country techniques and
speeds by watching them and analyzing their flight logs. Anyone can
do this, whatever they fly.

Finally, give the scorer a break! It's a hard and thankless task
without introducing yet another variable.

Mike

Todd - I was being sarcastic about "one-design" classes. I bought a
Russia AC-4 before I bought my DG-300, so I know the story of the
World Class all too well.

....And as a separate comment about this thread - It really sounds like
the people here arguing for a second handicap class all have the same
underlying desi They want a handicapped class, but one that only
includes SOME gliders - the ones they think are most fair to compete
against each other and the ones they think are already close in
performance.

(*with my tongue fimly planted in my cheek for the next few
statements*)
Wow, what would these same people think about something as "crazy" as
the Standard Class! Imagine, a Discus2 going up against an LS-10!
With NO handicap! Boy, that Discus sure is at a big disadvantage (2%
or 5%) under specific circumstances - Hell, that's a "1.05"
handicap! They ought to do something about that... Its a travesty!

Also, If we really wanted a "Club Class" in the USA that was
representative of most Club fleets, we'd see an AWFUL lot of G-102s,
Schweizer metal birds, and Blaniks or Twin Astirs... Maybe a Junior,
for the "high dollar" folks! Anyone with a glider produced after the
mid 1970's would be disqualified! And how long would it take for
people to start complaining about how that 1-26 or 1-36 can't be
handicapped well-enough to compare with that Astir or Junior on a
windy or strong-lift day? After all, the G-102 and Junior have much
better penetration and handicapping alone can't account for the
differences in their polars under various conditions!

*sigh*
--Noel