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Why are so many Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale?



 
 
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  #31  
Old November 15th 16, 01:12 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default Why are so many Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale?

Oh man, you're right! But in my defense, I read your reply to her and
we both got a chuckle. We enjoy every minute that we fly together but
about 25% of the total time, I fly alone.

On 11/14/2016 11:40 AM, Duster wrote:
......I've flown it 223
hours, taught my wife to fly it, and enjoyed her company on about
75% of the flights. ....snip.

....er....ah....Dan, I think you made a big faux pas that needs correction ASAP. I'm sure you meant to say, "I enjoyed her company 100% of the time. We fly together 75% of the time".

It's almost Christmas, what were you thinking?
Mike


--
Dan, 5J
  #32  
Old November 15th 16, 02:15 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean[_2_]
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Default Why are so many Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale?

Can't wait Dan! Thx!
  #33  
Old November 15th 16, 06:22 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
bumper[_4_]
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Default Why are so many Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale?

The Stemme is unique among other gliders in several ways, and so are uniquely appealing! Here's how I enjoyed mine:

Stores in a regular T-hangar and able to operate out of even a busy tower controlled field. This allows a business person to leave the office early, get to the airport and unfold the wings, pre-flight, (this just takes minutes), taxi out on conventional retracting gear with wing clearance above signs and such, launch and go soar for a few hours. Ground handling is very good, four of us taxied out in a 35 knot wind, made 4 90 degree turns and launched pretty much vertically at the runway intersection (brag: I went first).. No other high performance glider I'm aware of could do that.

Turbo charged and intercooled, the Stemme can climb out of high and hot airports with no problem. Switching over to power involves little extra drag (a loss of maybe 12-15 L/D until the prop is turning). It handles turbulence with aplomb, soaking up the bumps better than any lighter glider I've flown.

I have a bit over 450 hours in the S10. I flew alongside a Stemme for about 15 miles with my ASH26E (50/1) both gliding straight line in fairly smooth air. He was slowly losing altitude on me the whole time, which was surprising, as I'd flown alongside Marty Hellman's S10 many times and running performance was quite similar. Discussing this on the radio with the other pilot (who shall go unnamed) Terry advised he'd forgotten to close his nose cone and thus his engine cooling vents were open too - for the extra drag, we still wasn't doing too bad, having lost only a few hundred feet on me as I recall :c)
  #34  
Old November 15th 16, 05:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Default Why are so many Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale?

Bring it, Sean. I'll be happy to show our next World Champion the
luxury of the Stemme!

On 11/14/2016 6:15 PM, Sean wrote:
Can't wait Dan! Thx!


--
Dan, 5J
  #35  
Old November 15th 16, 06:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
ND
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Posts: 314
Default Why are so many Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale?

On Tuesday, October 30, 2007 at 7:23:56 AM UTC-4, wrote:
I recall one occasion where person bought new Stemme from the factory.
On it's arrival to USA from Germany, it had 3 new AD's already. It is
frustrating to buy a new plane and start working the AD's before you
can fly.

On motorgliders generally. I can't understand why a piece of crap
engine installed into glider costs more than a new car. Some things
are totally wrong. Can't the engineers build a reliable engine on a
reasonable price? Cost of motorglider is enourmous now'a'days. Way too
much.

This is the only sport where a sport equipment costs ~$100000 and up
and when you are world champion, you get absolutely nothing. Maybe a
trophy, which you need to ship back home and pay extra fees to
airlines.

Costs are a big dilemma and that is the biggest reason why soaring is
declining...

PS



On 29 loka, 17:03, Dan wrote:
On Oct 27, 9:23 pm, VARR wrote:

There appear to be a number of Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale.


Take the wings and wheels motorglider listings. Usually I might see 1
for sale, today there are at least 4. http://wingsandwheels.com/want-ads10.htm


Are these people already upgrading to the Antares? ;-) I'm not
trolling, but rather am looking for actual information and opinions on


For many years I've been on a quest to own a motorglider. It has been
a long time dream of mine to enhance my soaring with the flexibility
only a motorglider offers. I have been watching and learning as much
as I can about all motorgliders (self launchers too) in general. When
I first saw the Stemme in 1992 at Oshkosh (its USA debut) I was very
impressed and I've followed the development of it closely. It's an
awesome machine. No doubt, the Stemme is by far the most complicated
sailplane ever. Also note that it does things no other sailplane has
ever done before. We have a saying in the Aerospace world....."if it
was easy it would have been done before".

I too tried to join the Stemme group, but like you I'm not an owner so
I too was not allowed to join. I agree with you that this is very
frustrating if you are trying to learn more about the Stemme. However
I also understand why the group took this course of action. From what
I've learned they felt that by keeping it only for owners they could
deal with the issues (AD's etc...) more frankly, openly and honestly
between themselves and not become distracted by outside commenter's
and sometimes trolls. This was a tough decision for the group but from
an engineering viewpoint probably the best way to get through what I
call teething problems. I've been around airplanes and gliders my
entire life, I'm an A&P and a professional aerospace engineer for 31
years so I'm well aware of the way aircraft can develop their own set
of rumors and gossip that can take on a life all their own. Rumor
mongering usually leads to nothing productive. I gave up trying to
talk to non-owners who all had an opinion but really were not
knowledgeable and I put them into the category of just generating more
gossip and rumor mongering.

So I too was frustrated in truly trying to learn more about the
Stemme. What I eventually did was talk to owners of Stemme's. Some
were far more open and knowledgeable than others. In general here are
some of what I've learned and some of my observations.

I've learned much about each problem, and AD and they all seem to make
logical sense for why the issue arose and the associated fix. Another
issue I feel is equally important is the preventative maintenance.
With such a complicated aircraft and so many newly developed systems
many of the needed preventative measures were not known or
understood. Time in the fleet has now started to address this. As
far as I can tell Stemme and the owners group have dealt with each
problem. And as far as I know each AD has fixed the problem and it
has not been a recurring problem after the AD was complied with. I
am of the belief that properly maintained and with an understanding
eye one could truly enjoy the unique capabilities only offered by the
Stemme.

The Stemme is certainly on my "short list" of aircraft I'd like to
own.

Dan Rihn
Rihn Aircraft Corp.

PS- Some of my own personal observations on all motorgliders in
general-
One of my nagging concerns with all motorgliders has been the use of
commercial off the shelf (COTS) components, in other words automotive
parts or motorcylcle parts. This has become more and more prevalent
in the aircraft industry and sometimes it works great and sometimes
not so well. Personally I prefer the use of as much more typical (at
least in the USA) AN fittings, certified hoses, TSO'd oil coolers,
wheels tires brakes etc... The rigorous testing these parts have had to
undergo is worth every penny and maybe your life. I also prefer
reliance on as much tried and true system design standards. I
understand that in many cases there are not "certified" parts that can
be used but in areas where they can I wish they would be used as much
as possible. On several motorgliders I've looked into I've seen many
non-standard practices used, I certainly don't like plastic hose
fittings on fuel and oil lines. Obviously several motorgliders also
use non certified engines (some 2-stroke). I'm also not keen on this,
so it's important to look at the fleet reliability. Some of the VW
conversions have been made to work well. But again I prefer as much
typical certified aircraft sub system components as possible.

the S10-VT motorglider.


Thx in advance.


VARR


P.S. I would consult a dedicated Stemme owner/operator site, but the
Stemme Owners Group is closed to prospective owners, and the
simpletons actually redirect discussion to R.A.S. http://stemme.org/
sez "Please note that the list is not open to prospective Stemme
aircraft owners, and those interested in acquiring one ... are invited
to contact one of the Stemme sales agencies noted above or to consult
Internet resources such as the rec.aviation.soaring Usenet newsgroup."




#clubclass where you can compete and have all the fun in the world for as little as 10 grand. no one makes people buy the really expensive ones. if nobody did, costs would come down.

this sport is only as expensive as you make it.
  #36  
Old November 15th 16, 10:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
WB
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Posts: 236
Default Why are so many Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale?

On Tuesday, November 15, 2016 at 11:00:42 AM UTC-6, ND wrote:
On Tuesday, October 30, 2007 at 7:23:56 AM UTC-4, wrote:


#clubclass where you can compete and have all the fun in the world for as little as 10 grand. no one makes people buy the really expensive ones. if nobody did, costs would come down.

this sport is only as expensive as you make it.


Absolutely! I've been campaigning my old 301 Libelle for 15 years. I've got less than $20k total in the glider, instruments, trailer, AND the RV I tow it with. The single most expensive thing other than the glider and RV is that damn PFlarm unit. I guess the 'chute would have cost more than the Flarm, but I won that in one of the SSA sweepstakes (Remember those?).
  #37  
Old November 16th 16, 10:56 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 60
Default Why are so many Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale?

Dan,

Prices for second-hand S10's range from 75.000 euros to over 200.000 dollars.
I'm wondering what might explain the large differences between such prices?

regards,

Roel
  #38  
Old November 16th 16, 11:08 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Chris Rollings[_2_]
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Posts: 133
Default Why are so many Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale?



Mostly age and hours on the aircraft I would imagine.

At 09:56 16 November 2016, wrote:
Dan,

Prices for second-hand S10's range from 75.000 euros to over 200.000
dollars.
I'm wondering what might explain the large differences between such

prices?

regards,

Roel


  #39  
Old November 16th 16, 11:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 7
Default Why are so many Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale?

To give non-stemmers what it can do, this video is about a 500 km cross country done in 3.5 hours.
It is so well balanced while thermaling you don't have to be looking at Bumper's yaw string all the time.

Sorry is not in english!

https://youtu.be/KX1B11M_9ZE
  #40  
Old November 16th 16, 04:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 61
Default Why are so many Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale?

I flew a few hundred hours in a Stemme S10V (no turbo, Limbach engine). Based at my club in Varese, I was able to reach the Atlas mountains in Morocco in just three flights.
When using the engine, the running costs are quite high, because of the propeller's limited TBO which significantly adds to the engine's overhauls. I've been told that TBO has been increased so its impact is a bit less.

The Limbach engine performed adequately but has single ignition. It is best suited to long, hard runways and not-too-high elevations. No problems taking off in Ouarzazate with 40°C (hot) at 1.300m MSL in June, two on board and slightly over max mass. The runway is 3 km long, however.

It's a side-by-side cockpit and that implies a few remarks. Of course it's more "social", but not plenty of room for two large male adults. Seating position is very comfortable, after I added cushions to support my thigs and knees. Visibility towards the side opposite to your seat is significantly less than in a tandem cockpit.
Also, Center of Gravity moves forward quite a lot with two people on board; if it's setup to fly safely while solo, it will be heavier on controls and require too much trim and stick when flown double. If setup for double, it will be impossible to fly solo (exceeding rearmost CoG). I enjoeyd it the most when flying solo.
Handling gets lazy with positive flap. I used Zero until I was well established in a decent thermal, and then added flap to reduce speed and circling diameter. Any corrections are much easier with zero flaps. Use landing only on final, after having found the correct alignment.

An Italian guy used it with excellent results for a few years in the Open Class championship. He stopped this activity when handicap factors were abolished for italian national championships in any class except Club and TwoSeater.

I miss the Stemme.

Aldo Cernezzi
www.voloavela.it
 




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