One Design viability?

Hei,

Waduino wrote:


For the benefit of a newbie (me), could someone provide the short, i.e. not
the long, technical, legal, or whatever definition of the following:
1. Club Class

Basically older no longer competitive standard class gliders. Contests
are scored according to a handicaping system. Only a limited handicap
range is permitted. See www.wgc2004.no.

2. Sport Class

Same as Club Class, but wider handicap ranges permitted to enter, I
beleive. Also older 15m class gliders are permitted. Basically the US
counterpart to the European/international club class, but is also
popular in other countries. Propably not as "serious" as club class.
Rules and definitions might vary between countries.

Standard class has wing span limmited to 15m, and no chamber changing
flaps are allowed.

3. 15m Class - OK, I can guess wing span limited to 15m

Jepp. And chamber chainging flaps are permitted. Also, for some
reason, called "racing class".

4. 18m Class - another guess, wing span limited to 18m.

Jepp.

Christian 8-)

Stewart,

I came to the conclusion many years ago that sailplane racing is
expensive, no two ways around it. You can reduce the cost by racing
older gliders in the sports class at local venues, but if you want to
improve, you'll have to bite the bullet. A national contest costs
about $4K to attend and takes two weeks of precious vacation. To get
good, really good, you'll need to fly at least one national contest
and two to three regional contests (typically about $2K) attended by a
significant number of Category One pilots. There's four to five weeks
of vacation. Then you'll want to spend every available weekend racing
with your Category Two and One friends. To do this effectively, you'll
need a glider within 5 percent of theirs.

That's the level of commitment you are competing against. Many of the
pilots you'll compete against at a National contenst have more than 50
nationals under their belts. So when you get right down to it, owning
a glider under 40:1 won't allow an inexperienced pilot to grow fast
enough to keep his interest. There are some notable exceptions, but
they are, after all, exceptions. I've noted in our club that it's only
when pilots get into better gliders (LS-6, ASW-20, Ventus, and up)
that their cross-country skills really take off since they can now
stay in contact longer with more skillfull pilots -- that is, they are
afforded the opportunity to learn.

The PeeWee just isn't suited to learning racing skills.

BTW, others point to sailing as an example of the viability of a one
type class. The World Class was built on this concept; however, there
are so few glider pilots that we cannot hope to replicate the support
infrastructure that leads young sailors into these classes, and
defines a path to grow out of them into other classes. I've seen over
a hundred little sailboats at a time tearing around a variety of
harbors, piloted by kids from 10 to 50, with almost as many support
and spectator boats. We just don't live in that world.



Stewart Kissel wrote in message ...
With winter upon us in the northern hemisphere, the annual PW5 thread had=
reappeared. I started thinking about this ship and one design racing an=
d thought I might post this. I started thinking about this topic in the =
summer when I saw two full size bus conversion RV's pulling two brand-new=
looking glider trailers on what appeared to be a trip to a national cont=
est. From my location in Colorado and then license plates on the caravan=
, it was at least a 3 day drive. Pilots have every right to spend their=
hard earned money in whatever way they see fit, but watching $200K+ roll=
ing down the road reminded me of the yacht racing aspect of our sport.

With such a small percentage of pilots who compete, and the amount of tim=
e it consumes, and the amount of money it costs regardless of the ship be=
ing used-is their really any sort of demand for low cost "one design"? P=
articularly in light of sports class here in the USA. One design still r=
equires $4K+ of instruments/loggers/software/PDA to be competitive. It s=
till requires long travels and much(all) vacation time used up. 1-26ers =
love their ships, but I am not so sure they would take that enthusiasm to=
another bird. And 1-26 racing involves different models of the ship whi=
ch makes the idea of an identical performing ship somewhat suspect. =20

And I just don't see how any bird being built currently can price itself =
below a nice used LS3 or 4. So rather then beat up the little PW5, maybe=
we need to look harder at the concept of one design racing. I like the =
idea but am not sure that in this day and age that is where so much effor=
t needs to go IMVHO. While digesting turkey thought I would write this o=
ut. =20

Chris-

Some good data you generated on that post. If the
idea pushing the one design concept is: 'More racing
generates more interest in the sport of soaring,
which causes our numbers to grow'-maybe it is time
to revisit that concept.



At 14:48 29 November 2003, Chris Ocallaghan wrote:
Stewart,

I came to the conclusion many years ago that sailplane
racing is
expensive, no two ways around it. You can reduce the
cost by racing
older gliders in the sports class at local venues,
but if you want to
improve, you'll have to bite the bullet. A national
contest costs
about $4K to attend and takes two weeks of precious
vacation. To get
good, really good, you'll need to fly at least one
national contest
and two to three regional contests (typically about
$2K) attended by a
significant number of Category One pilots. There's
four to five weeks
of vacation. Then you'll want to spend every available
weekend racing
with your Category Two and One friends. To do this
effectively, you'll
need a glider within 5 percent of theirs.

That's the level of commitment you are competing against.
Many of the
pilots you'll compete against at a National contenst
have more than 50
nationals under their belts. So when you get right
down to it, owning
a glider under 40:1 won't allow an inexperienced pilot
to grow fast
enough to keep his interest. There are some notable
exceptions, but
they are, after all, exceptions. I've noted in our
club that it's only
when pilots get into better gliders (LS-6, ASW-20,
Ventus, and up)
that their cross-country skills really take off since
they can now
stay in contact longer with more skillfull pilots --
that is, they are
afforded the opportunity to learn.

The PeeWee just isn't suited to learning racing skills.

BTW, others point to sailing as an example of the viability
of a one
type class. The World Class was built on this concept;
however, there
are so few glider pilots that we cannot hope to replicate
the support
infrastructure that leads young sailors into these
classes, and
defines a path to grow out of them into other classes.
I've seen over
a hundred little sailboats at a time tearing around
a variety of
harbors, piloted by kids from 10 to 50, with almost
as many support
and spectator boats. We just don't live in that world.



Stewart Kissel wrote in message news:...
With winter upon us in the northern hemisphere, the
annual PW5 thread had=
reappeared. I started thinking about this ship and
one design racing an=
d thought I might post this. I started thinking about
this topic in the =
summer when I saw two full size bus conversion RV's
pulling two brand-new=
looking glider trailers on what appeared to be a
trip to a national cont=
est. From my location in Colorado and then license
plates on the caravan=
, it was at least a 3 day drive. Pilots have every
right to spend their=
hard earned money in whatever way they see fit, but
watching $200K+ roll=
ing down the road reminded me of the yacht racing
aspect of our sport.

With such a small percentage of pilots who compete,
and the amount of tim=
e it consumes, and the amount of money it costs regardless
of the ship be=
ing used-is their really any sort of demand for low
cost 'one design'? P=
articularly in light of sports class here in the USA.
One design still r=
equires $4K+ of instruments/loggers/software/PDA to
be competitive. It s=
till requires long travels and much(all) vacation
time used up. 1-26ers =
love their ships, but I am not so sure they would
take that enthusiasm to=
another bird. And 1-26 racing involves different
models of the ship whi=
ch makes the idea of an identical performing ship
somewhat suspect. =20

And I just don't see how any bird being built currently
can price itself =
below a nice used LS3 or 4. So rather then beat up
the little PW5, maybe=
we need to look harder at the concept of one design
racing. I like the =
idea but am not sure that in this day and age that
is where so much effor=
t needs to go IMVHO. While digesting turkey thought
I would write this o=
ut. =20

If the
idea pushing the one design concept is: 'More racing
generates more interest in the sport of soaring,
which causes our numbers to grow'

Wasn't that the absolutely first aim of generating the World Class?
Making equal racing possible in a $15000 worth PW-5, which is also easy =
to fly makes it more accesible.
And that means more racing the most probably.

Regards,


--=20
Janusz Kesik

visit www.leszno.pl - home of the www.css-leszno.it.pl

Janusz,

Show me a "$15,000" PW5 (with competition instruments,a trailer, and
imported into the US) and I'll buy it. Of course, I'll turn around and
sell it for the $28,000 or so it really costs, then buy a nice LS-4.




"Janusz Kesik" wrote in message
...
If the
idea pushing the one design concept is: 'More racing
generates more interest in the sport of soaring,
which causes our numbers to grow'

Wasn't that the absolutely first aim of generating the World Class?
Making equal racing possible in a $15000 worth PW-5, which is also easy to
fly makes it more accesible.
And that means more racing the most probably.

Regards,


--
Janusz Kesik

visit www.leszno.pl - home of the www.css-leszno.it.pl

We have solved (in Poland) the problem of costs and time needed to =
compete in the contests by setting up a year-round "Bitner memorial" =
contest.
The rules are very simple: contest lasts for one calender year, and =
pilots willing to join it simply fill the "flight submission form" prior =
to take off, take a photo or write down the logger info, then fly the =
task. After the flight, they just put it into an envelope along with a =
photo film or floppy disk with file downloaded from logger and then send =
them for scoring. Each of pilots is allowed to submit three flights, =
freely selected by him - just those best ones. There's no limitation of =
glider type, and the pilots aren't divided for juniors or seniors. All =
the pilots fly when they want / have time to fly, what they want to fly =
(handicaps of couse are present here) and where they want to fly. The =
only limit is that the flight has to be done in Poland.

It really works here, this year competing have been some 150 pilots (and =
compare population of Poland and USA). There were some 40 editions of =
this contest. And the winners have right to enter the nationals, just as =
it they had won one of the regional contests.

I think it's a perfect formula for adding the World Class, at least in =
the USA more momentum. This means, that any PW-5 user could fly whenever =
want - after work, during weekend, and fly at the nearest airfield, =
where he keeps his little glider. This means no additional cost, no =
wasting of time for travel or waiting for the "right" weather. And it =
fits the idea of World Class - affordable glider, the same for all =
competitors and class which's purpose is to make gliding more popular by =
giving a chance to fly the contests as the equal competitor at low cost, =
and without extra cost or spending time.

Of course, the weather conditions in the US (and in other countries =
surely too) vary a lot, so there should be something like =
"regional/state handicap" which should make competition more equal =
countrywide. This could be a chance for 1-26 drivers willing to move up =
in performance and in technology (yes, I hear laugh of some guys from =
the back rows, but I am sure this is true).

That are my tro cents...

Regards,


--=20
Janusz Kesik

visit www.leszno.pl - home of the www.css-leszno.it.pl


With such a small percentage of pilots who compete, and the amount of =
tim=3D
e it consumes, and the amount of money it costs regardless of the ship =
be=3D
ing used-is their really any sort of demand for low cost "one design"? =
P=3D
articularly in light of sports class here in the USA. One design =
still r=3D
equires $4K+ of instruments/loggers/software/PDA to be competitive. =
It s=3D
till requires long travels and much(all) vacation time used up. =
1-26ers =3D
love their ships, but I am not so sure they would take that enthusiasm =
to=3D
another bird. And 1-26 racing involves different models of the ship =
whi=3D
ch makes the idea of an identical performing ship somewhat suspect. =
=3D20

"Janusz Kesik" wrote in message
...
Of course, the weather conditions in the US (and in other countries surely
too) vary a lot, so there should be something like "regional/state
handicap" which should make competition more equal countrywide.

And therein lies the problem......!

Ian

Just in case you really have no clue about this, The
Standard Class is also a 15meter wing class. This
class does not allow a flapped wing. The 15 meter class
allows flaps. Beyond these two classes there was/is
the Open Class. This one allows any wing length available.
In the past, most of these were 18meters or thereabouts.
Twenty and twenty-two meter wings began showing up
often enough that a special 18 meter class was needed
to separate these two.

At 01:12 30 November 2003, Waduino wrote:
For the benefit of a newbie (me), could someone provide
the short, i.e. not
the long, technical, legal, or whatever definition
of the following:
1. Club Class
2. Sport Class
3. 15m Class - OK, I can guess wing span limited to
15m
4. 18m Class - another guess, wing span limited to
18m.
Thanks.
Wad.

----

'Eric Greenwell' wrote in message
...
Stewart Kissel wrote:

I've wondered about this also. We have, in effect,
one-design contests
in the STD, 15 M, and 18 M classes, because there
is little difference
between the top gliders from each manufacturer. It's
not a low cost,
one-design, situation, of course, but because the
gliders offer what
most pilots want in a glider, they sell well to pilots
that aren't
serious competitors.

We have low(er) cost racing via the Sport Class (USA)
and the Club Class
(elsewhere). The Sports Class isn't one-design by
any measure, but it's
popular anyway. The Club Class isn't one-design, either,
but it's method
for selecting gliders for the class comes close in
matching
performances, and when the handicap is used, it's
just as effective as a
one-design class at equalizing performance.

As I see it, the only thing that would get the world class moving would be
for it to be accepted as an Olympic sport. Then we would really see some
interest.
-Bob Korves

"Stewart Kissel" wrote in
message ...
With winter upon us in the northern hemisphere, the annual PW5 thread had=
reappeared. I started thinking about this ship and one design racing an=
d thought I might post this. I started thinking about this topic in the =
summer when I saw two full size bus conversion RV's pulling two brand-new=
looking glider trailers on what appeared to be a trip to a national cont=
est. From my location in Colorado and then license plates on the caravan=
, it was at least a 3 day drive. Pilots have every right to spend their=
hard earned money in whatever way they see fit, but watching $200K+ roll=
ing down the road reminded me of the yacht racing aspect of our sport.

With such a small percentage of pilots who compete, and the amount of tim=
e it consumes, and the amount of money it costs regardless of the ship be=
ing used-is their really any sort of demand for low cost "one design"? P=
articularly in light of sports class here in the USA. One design still r=
equires $4K+ of instruments/loggers/software/PDA to be competitive. It s=
till requires long travels and much(all) vacation time used up. 1-26ers =
love their ships, but I am not so sure they would take that enthusiasm to=
another bird. And 1-26 racing involves different models of the ship whi=
ch makes the idea of an identical performing ship somewhat suspect. =20

And I just don't see how any bird being built currently can price itself =
below a nice used LS3 or 4. So rather then beat up the little PW5, maybe=
we need to look harder at the concept of one design racing. I like the =
idea but am not sure that in this day and age that is where so much effor=
t needs to go IMVHO. While digesting turkey thought I would write this o=
ut. =20

"Bob Korves" bkorves@winfirstPOINTcom wrote in message
...
As I see it, the only thing that would get the world class moving would be
for it to be accepted as an Olympic sport. Then we would really see some
interest.
-Bob Korves


Absolutely correct.
It is the VENUE in which the class flys that makes or
breaks the class participation.

Scott