FlyWIthCE FR300 vs LXNAV Nano for OLC and Silver/Gold badge flying

for example:

http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?id=442

Used Volkslogger for $100 !

On Monday, February 3, 2014 6:29:26 PM UTC-6, waremark wrote:
On Monday, 3 February 2014 23:40:39 UTC, wrote:

On Monday, February 3, 2014 4:55:33 AM UTC-5, waremark wrote:



The 1% altitude difference rule normally requires a maximum altitude difference of 500m or about 1,650 feet for a 50 k silver distance flight. With a position recorder it becomes a maximum altitude loss of 400 m or 1,300 feet.







I heard directly from the SSA about 20 minutes ago that the 100m of altitude "buffer" if you will, only applies to altitude heights.







You can fly your silver distance with one the height differential still cannot be greater than 500m.







Looks like I'm ordering mine shortly........



To be clear, I don't say you should not get one, so long as your eyes are open to the issues of the height buffer and the need for specific software for downloading. But if the SSA say the height buffer does not affect distance claims, that is certainly different from the way the same rules are applied in the UK. It is also illogical. From the BGA website:



"Badge Claims and Position Recorders 24th September 2012



From October 1st, approved GPS position recorders will be allowed for all silver and gold badge legs without the use of an additional barograph. However, where height differences are critical (height claims and claims involving the 1% rule) there will be a 100m penalty applied to the GPS height gain or loss when a position recorder is used without an independent barograph. For example, a silver height gain will need to show a GPS height gain of 1100meters and a silver distance of, say, 60km will need to show a height loss of less than 500m: ((60k*1%)-100)."



You should also consider the implications for any future competition flying. Again, the height buffer issue may come into play in relation to start and finish heights and penalty zones.



An LX Nav Nano III would clearly be a better device, but for many times the price. A 2nd hand IGC logger might be closer in price, but might be less convenient, for example needing external power or an external aerial.


The 100m buffer is not needed with the LXNAV Nano device - is that correct ? Does that device need periodic calibration or anything like that ?

Doug

On Tuesday, 4 February 2014 18:11:00 UTC, wrote:
On Monday, February 3, 2014 6:29:26 PM UTC-6, waremark wrote:

On Monday, 3 February 2014 23:40:39 UTC, wrote:



On Monday, February 3, 2014 4:55:33 AM UTC-5, waremark wrote:







The 1% altitude difference rule normally requires a maximum altitude difference of 500m or about 1,650 feet for a 50 k silver distance flight. With a position recorder it becomes a maximum altitude loss of 400 m or 1,300 feet.















I heard directly from the SSA about 20 minutes ago that the 100m of altitude "buffer" if you will, only applies to altitude heights.















You can fly your silver distance with one the height differential still cannot be greater than 500m.















Looks like I'm ordering mine shortly........







To be clear, I don't say you should not get one, so long as your eyes are open to the issues of the height buffer and the need for specific software for downloading. But if the SSA say the height buffer does not affect distance claims, that is certainly different from the way the same rules are applied in the UK. It is also illogical. From the BGA website:







"Badge Claims and Position Recorders 24th September 2012







From October 1st, approved GPS position recorders will be allowed for all silver and gold badge legs without the use of an additional barograph. However, where height differences are critical (height claims and claims involving the 1% rule) there will be a 100m penalty applied to the GPS height gain or loss when a position recorder is used without an independent barograph. For example, a silver height gain will need to show a GPS height gain of 1100meters and a silver distance of, say, 60km will need to show a height loss of less than 500m: ((60k*1%)-100)."







You should also consider the implications for any future competition flying. Again, the height buffer issue may come into play in relation to start and finish heights and penalty zones.







An LX Nav Nano III would clearly be a better device, but for many times the price. A 2nd hand IGC logger might be closer in price, but might be less convenient, for example needing external power or an external aerial.





The 100m buffer is not needed with the LXNAV Nano device - is that correct ? Does that device need periodic calibration or anything like that ?



Doug

GNSS Flight Recorders since a recent change require a calibration check every five years. I hope Paul Remde will not mind me quoting from his excellent Cumulus Soaring website:

"IGC Calibration Requirement Frequency Change
In the past, IGC rules required GPS flight recorders to be calibrated every 2 years. In October of 2013 the IGC changed the rule - requiring GPS flight recorders to be calibrated every 5 years. It does not matter whether your last calibration was done before or after October 2013. To use it for badge or record verification it must have been calibrated within 5 years. For some badges and records it is acceptable to get the calibration done after flight (within 60 days?). However, some national and world altitude records require calibration both before (within 5 years) and after (within 30 days?) the flight. The new 5 year fule is in section 4.4.4 in the 2013 edition of the Sporting Code, Section 3."

How does a Nano get re-calibrated?

Zen

On Wednesday, 5 February 2014 01:02:48 UTC, Dale Watkins wrote:
How does a Nano get re-calibrated?



Zen

It does not get recalibrated electronically. The calibration is checked, and a calibration chart is produced, from which the altitude figures reported in the IGC file are adjusted if appropriate when making a badge claim. So far as I can remember the calibration chart is only required if the relevant height gain/loss is within certain limits of what is required for a successful badge claim (or record or competition flight) - and the calibration check can take place retrospectively after the relevant flight if there has not been one within the previous 5 years. Perhaps someone more up to date than me can confirm with more specific details.

If you are looking for an electronic logbook, silver badge, OLC, FlyWithCE is the best option. For the price it is hard to beat.

If you are trying to claim your world record, get on the US Soaring Team, Diamond badge. Then you will need to upgrade loggers to the Nano.

Garret Willat
Wings and Wheels

On Tuesday, February 4, 2014 12:11:00 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Monday, February 3, 2014 6:29:26 PM UTC-6, waremark wrote:

On Monday, 3 February 2014 23:40:39 UTC, wrote:



On Monday, February 3, 2014 4:55:33 AM UTC-5, waremark wrote:







The 1% altitude difference rule normally requires a maximum altitude difference of 500m or about 1,650 feet for a 50 k silver distance flight. With a position recorder it becomes a maximum altitude loss of 400 m or 1,300 feet.















I heard directly from the SSA about 20 minutes ago that the 100m of altitude "buffer" if you will, only applies to altitude heights.















You can fly your silver distance with one the height differential still cannot be greater than 500m.















Looks like I'm ordering mine shortly........







To be clear, I don't say you should not get one, so long as your eyes are open to the issues of the height buffer and the need for specific software for downloading. But if the SSA say the height buffer does not affect distance claims, that is certainly different from the way the same rules are applied in the UK. It is also illogical. From the BGA website:







"Badge Claims and Position Recorders 24th September 2012







From October 1st, approved GPS position recorders will be allowed for all silver and gold badge legs without the use of an additional barograph. However, where height differences are critical (height claims and claims involving the 1% rule) there will be a 100m penalty applied to the GPS height gain or loss when a position recorder is used without an independent barograph. For example, a silver height gain will need to show a GPS height gain of 1100meters and a silver distance of, say, 60km will need to show a height loss of less than 500m: ((60k*1%)-100)."







You should also consider the implications for any future competition flying. Again, the height buffer issue may come into play in relation to start and finish heights and penalty zones.







An LX Nav Nano III would clearly be a better device, but for many times the price. A 2nd hand IGC logger might be closer in price, but might be less convenient, for example needing external power or an external aerial.





The 100m buffer is not needed with the LXNAV Nano device - is that correct ? Does that device need periodic calibration or anything like that ?



Doug

OK, here are some sample calculations for my Silver distance. Calculating a trip 34 miles to an airport at 625 msl - out and land - the 1% rule works out like this.

34 x 5280 = 179,520 x .01 = 1795.2 + 625 = 2420.2 msl highest tow

so that would be with the Nano. With the FlyWithCE, that highest tow gets knocked down to 2092.2 msl. Margin is a bit tighter - I'm usually heading for the IP at 2000 msl. Should that be a consideration ? Or should I be tasking a longer destination or an out and back so that my tow release can be higher ?

Doug

On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 9:08:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 4, 2014 12:11:00 PM UTC-6, wrote:

On Monday, February 3, 2014 6:29:26 PM UTC-6, waremark wrote:



On Monday, 3 February 2014 23:40:39 UTC, wrote:







On Monday, February 3, 2014 4:55:33 AM UTC-5, waremark wrote:















The 1% altitude difference rule normally requires a maximum altitude difference of 500m or about 1,650 feet for a 50 k silver distance flight. With a position recorder it becomes a maximum altitude loss of 400 m or 1,300 feet.































I heard directly from the SSA about 20 minutes ago that the 100m of altitude "buffer" if you will, only applies to altitude heights.































You can fly your silver distance with one the height differential still cannot be greater than 500m.































Looks like I'm ordering mine shortly........















To be clear, I don't say you should not get one, so long as your eyes are open to the issues of the height buffer and the need for specific software for downloading. But if the SSA say the height buffer does not affect distance claims, that is certainly different from the way the same rules are applied in the UK. It is also illogical. From the BGA website:















"Badge Claims and Position Recorders 24th September 2012















From October 1st, approved GPS position recorders will be allowed for all silver and gold badge legs without the use of an additional barograph. However, where height differences are critical (height claims and claims involving the 1% rule) there will be a 100m penalty applied to the GPS height gain or loss when a position recorder is used without an independent barograph. For example, a silver height gain will need to show a GPS height gain of 1100meters and a silver distance of, say, 60km will need to show a height loss of less than 500m: ((60k*1%)-100)."















You should also consider the implications for any future competition flying. Again, the height buffer issue may come into play in relation to start and finish heights and penalty zones.















An LX Nav Nano III would clearly be a better device, but for many times the price. A 2nd hand IGC logger might be closer in price, but might be less convenient, for example needing external power or an external aerial.











The 100m buffer is not needed with the LXNAV Nano device - is that correct ? Does that device need periodic calibration or anything like that ?







Doug



OK, here are some sample calculations for my Silver distance. Calculating a trip 34 miles to an airport at 625 msl - out and land - the 1% rule works out like this.



34 x 5280 = 179,520 x .01 = 1795.2 + 625 = 2420.2 msl highest tow



so that would be with the Nano. With the FlyWithCE, that highest tow gets knocked down to 2092.2 msl. Margin is a bit tighter - I'm usually heading for the IP at 2000 msl. Should that be a consideration ? Or should I be tasking a longer destination or an out and back so that my tow release can be higher ?



Doug

If you're using a GPS recorder of some kind (IGC approved or just an
approved position recorder), go ahead and plan on making the round trip.
The 1% rule will apply to however far you wind up going. E.g. you make it
to the turnpoint, and land out halfway back. You flew 34+17=51 miles.
Now 51 x 5280 x 0.01 = 2693 feet for the maximum drop to your landing
position.

Landing at the target only makes sense if you are just using a barograph
or if there's some special prize you will collect by landing there.
I did both of those on my Silver distance flight!

Matt

Nano offers the best option, personal opinion, for someone flying different aircraft. Self contained, small package great battery life. Set it and forget it.
Colibri II has great features and displays, but battery does not last long as long, it has displays to drive.

Nano has self contained software for setting a task, but works great with task planning software and uploading the task to the Nano and downloading the results.
Without the software, the Nano looks and works like a flash drive for retrieving the data file. (it has a micro SD card that holds everything)

BillT

Over the years, the "rules" for the silver distance have "evolved". Now it is by far the most complicated badge task, with many options of how it can be done successfully.

Unless you are a "purist" and use a baragraph, and release from tow less than 1% above the landing site...

Using a flight recorder, you can tow as high as you want...(or is it still 3280' limit on tow?) you just then have to finish appropriately high regarding the 1% rule.

So...starting "high enough" ensures that you can contact a good thermal or two before you set out on your task....you're gonna do the silver on a decent thermal day anyway... so it should be no trouble to find a thermal near the end of the task, to satisfy the 1% rule....(and to allow for the Fly with CE extra height needed)

Cookie


so that would be with the Nano. With the FlyWithCE, that highest tow gets knocked down to 2092.2 msl. Margin is a bit tighter - I'm usually heading for the IP at 2000 msl. Should that be a consideration ? Or should I be tasking a longer destination or an out and back so that my tow release can be higher ?



Doug