Turn coordinator? How dare they!

"son_of_flubber" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, February 24, 2013 5:06:33 PM UTC-5, wrote:

snip ...Why not equip gliders (with a turn and bank indicator) and pilots
(with training) to safely handle a few minutes of cloud flying if it is a
non-zero possibility?


That's a pretty naive question. The average VFR pilot has "178 seconds to
live" after an inadvertent trip into IMC, according to the Air Safety
Foundation. So what training do you think would equip the average VFR pilot
to "safely handle a few minutes of cloud flying"?

My Air Force pilot training lasted over a year but produced a competent
instrument pilot. In service, I used to practice partial panel (needle and
ball) recoveries from unusual attitudes in a two-seater. I was *very good*
on instruments.

Still, with a TruTrac in my panel, I don't feel at all safe to venture into
IMC in my glider since I haven't flown IFR in about 10 years. It's a
perishable skill.

While at FL290 on my Diamond climb, I noticed the clouds beginning to close
below me. I opened the dive brakes on the L-23 and flew downwind to the
sink and performed an emergency descent. Maintaining sutuational awareness
will keep you out of the clouds in all but the rarest of circumstances.
Good judgement will keep you from getting into situations that require
superior skill. (BTW, I got the diamond and completed the badge on that
flight.)

Dan, 5J

On Monday, February 25, 2013 9:50:52 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
"son_of_flubber" wrote in message

...

On Sunday, February 24, 2013 5:06:33 PM UTC-5, wrote:



snip ...Why not equip gliders (with a turn and bank indicator) and pilots

(with training) to safely handle a few minutes of cloud flying if it is a

non-zero possibility?





That's a pretty naive question. The average VFR pilot has "178 seconds to

live" after an inadvertent trip into IMC, according to the Air Safety

Foundation. So what training do you think would equip the average VFR pilot

to "safely handle a few minutes of cloud flying"?



My Air Force pilot training lasted over a year but produced a competent

instrument pilot. In service, I used to practice partial panel (needle and

ball) recoveries from unusual attitudes in a two-seater. I was *very good*

on instruments.



Still, with a TruTrac in my panel, I don't feel at all safe to venture into

IMC in my glider since I haven't flown IFR in about 10 years. It's a

perishable skill.



While at FL290 on my Diamond climb, I noticed the clouds beginning to close

below me. I opened the dive brakes on the L-23 and flew downwind to the

sink and performed an emergency descent. Maintaining sutuational awareness

will keep you out of the clouds in all but the rarest of circumstances.

Good judgement will keep you from getting into situations that require

superior skill. (BTW, I got the diamond and completed the badge on that

flight.)



Dan, 5J

Thanks Dan, naive is the word for many of the above posts. Flying into clouds with little or now training is suicidal. The glider will break up and you'll hope the parachute packer is your friend. The false reliance on the an AI or turn-and-bank may keep you from going through the last hole in the undercast until it's too late.
A friend of mine back in Germany told me this story 30 years ago: he decided to "try" cloudflying in his wooden ship one day, using a turn indicator. After the 3 min or that Dan's mentioned, things went wrong. Speed went up and down, he was tossed around in the cockpit and had lost control. When he was falling out of the cloud, he looked down to see the ground but found the ground "above" him. He was not aware of his upside-down orientation. His old but sturdy glider never went past vne so he lived to tell the story.

Herb

On Monday, 25 February 2013 17:22:39 UTC, wrote:
On Monday, February 25, 2013 9:50:52 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:

"son_of_flubber" wrote in message



...



On Sunday, February 24, 2013 5:06:33 PM UTC-5, wrote:







snip ...Why not equip gliders (with a turn and bank indicator) and pilots



(with training) to safely handle a few minutes of cloud flying if it is a



non-zero possibility?











That's a pretty naive question. The average VFR pilot has "178 seconds to



live" after an inadvertent trip into IMC, according to the Air Safety



Foundation. So what training do you think would equip the average VFR pilot



to "safely handle a few minutes of cloud flying"?







My Air Force pilot training lasted over a year but produced a competent



instrument pilot. In service, I used to practice partial panel (needle and



ball) recoveries from unusual attitudes in a two-seater. I was *very good*



on instruments.







Still, with a TruTrac in my panel, I don't feel at all safe to venture into



IMC in my glider since I haven't flown IFR in about 10 years. It's a



perishable skill.







While at FL290 on my Diamond climb, I noticed the clouds beginning to close



below me. I opened the dive brakes on the L-23 and flew downwind to the



sink and performed an emergency descent. Maintaining sutuational awareness



will keep you out of the clouds in all but the rarest of circumstances.



Good judgement will keep you from getting into situations that require



superior skill. (BTW, I got the diamond and completed the badge on that



flight.)







Dan, 5J



Thanks Dan, naive is the word for many of the above posts. Flying into clouds with little or now training is suicidal. The glider will break up and you'll hope the parachute packer is your friend. The false reliance on the an AI or turn-and-bank may keep you from going through the last hole in the undercast until it's too late.

A friend of mine back in Germany told me this story 30 years ago: he decided to "try" cloudflying in his wooden ship one day, using a turn indicator.. After the 3 min or that Dan's mentioned, things went wrong. Speed went up and down, he was tossed around in the cockpit and had lost control. When he was falling out of the cloud, he looked down to see the ground but found the ground "above" him. He was not aware of his upside-down orientation.. His old but sturdy glider never went past vne so he lived to tell the story.



Herb

While I don't suggest cloud flying is to be taken lightly, most people who do it in the countries where it is permitted seem to survive (with their gliders intact and their parachutes unused). Here it is permitted, and there is no formal qualification or training scheme - though there will be soon, for which the syllabus is yet to be determined. It is not a significant cause of accidents in the UK (I cannot recall reading of such an accident in the accident reports).

Most gliders at our club are equipped with artificial horizons - I have the AH module for my LX9000. Dynon units are very popular (I have never heard of anyone trusting a mobile phone app). Many types of glider level the wings and maintain a stable speed if you open the airbrakes from a spiral dive - so the 'get out of jail' plan if the instrument fails or you lose control is to let go of the stick and open the brakes while the speed is still quite low and you are trimmed appropriately. You had better be sure that cloudbase is well above the highest ground anywhere near!

Since I hold an 'IMC endorsement' for my PPL, I get tested on partial panel recovery from unusual attitudes every 2 years in a Cessna or Piper. However, this is in a draggy 'spam can' - a slippery glider is a different kettle of fish, putting on speed much more quickly in a nose down attitude. Personally, I would not expect to be able to cloud fly a glider without an artificial horizon, though there are many pilots who can and do.

Mark, from London Gliding Club, Dunstable, UK

On Sunday, February 24, 2013 2:42:29 PM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Sunday, February 24, 2013 3:56:45 AM UTC-5, rk wrote:

It is most difficult, exciting and fun thing you can do in glider.



So if a US pilot wanted to experience cloud flying in a glider, could he go to England and get some instruction? Do the English thermal up through clouds on a typical blue_sky_and_CU_day, or do they reserve the cloud flying for unexpected weather and emergencies?



And do I understand correctly that the only legal way to fly in clouds in the USA is 1)in an unanticipated emergency (getting caught above deck when flying wave) in which case no IFR rating is required and it can be accomplished with a turn and bank indicator and basic instruments, or 2)with an IFR rating and in a glider fully equipped for IFR flying (landings and navigation included)?



It seems a little out of touch with reality that gliders frequently put themselves in the position where they might need to descend through clouds and yet they typically do not have the training or carry the instruments to handle that situation. Is this because the FAR were written before it was common for gliders to fly in wave? If we brought this anomaly to the attention of the FAA, are we afraid that they will outlaw wave flying?

Not sure of the current UK rules, but my Gold altitude ascent at Aboyne in 1978 involved a 4000ft cloud climb, exiting through the top to 15000MSL. I had some additional thermal climbs before that flight, but not a lot. The rules were quite simple and cloud flying was still allowed in UK contests during the mid-1990's. Again not sure of current rules and practices.

That said, a very experienced UK pilot perished during his second cloud ascent of the day. He got upset in the cloud and was knocked unconscious during the ensuing tumble, never to recover or exit the glider.

Frank Whiteley

"son_of_flubber" wrote in message
snip ...Why not equip gliders (with a turn and bank indicator) and pilots
(with training) to safely handle a few minutes of cloud flying if it is a
non-zero possibility

On Monday, February 25, 2013 10:50:52 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
That's a pretty naive question.

Pretty much ALL of my questions are naive due to my lack of much experience and training. It's good for me to reminded of that from time to time. Thanks for your answer.

I meant no disrespect with my reply and I hope none was taken.

Way back when, I tried the "benign spiral" in my LS-6a. I found it to be
dynamically unstable in pitch and, after a few cycles without touching the
stick, it was ready to loop or break Vne.

I know another glider pilot who told me that he entered a cumulus cloud in a
1-26, had a great climb, and flew out the side of the cloud. He tried it
again and came out the bottom of the cloud inverted. He was an Air Force
fighter pilot so unusual attitudes were no stranger to him.

It can be done, but it can also cause a bent aircraft. It's just not worth
it to me so I'll keep my eyes open for opportunities to get drawn into a
cloud or caught on top and avoid them.


"son_of_flubber" wrote in message
...
"son_of_flubber" wrote in message
snip ...Why not equip gliders (with a turn and bank indicator) and
pilots
(with training) to safely handle a few minutes of cloud flying if it is
a
non-zero possibility

On Monday, February 25, 2013 10:50:52 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
That's a pretty naive question.

Pretty much ALL of my questions are naive due to my lack of much
experience and training. It's good for me to reminded of that from time
to time. Thanks for your answer.

On Monday, February 25, 2013 5:04:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:

Way back when, I tried the "benign spiral" in my LS-6a. I found it to be

dynamically unstable in pitch and, after a few cycles without touching the

stick, it was ready to loop or break Vne.

Did you use full dive brakes?

In article son_of_flubber writes:
"son_of_flubber" wrote in message
snip ...Why not equip gliders (with a turn and bank indicator) and pilots
(with training) to safely handle a few minutes of cloud flying if it is a
non-zero possibility

On Monday, February 25, 2013 10:50:52 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
That's a pretty naive question.

Pretty much ALL of my questions are naive due to my lack of much experience and training. It's good for me to reminded of that from time to time. Thanks for your answer.


I would agree and disagree with Dan about this. Obvious reasons
include expense (gyros are expensive), weight, and power.

The training would probably be a big deal as well -- the single
engine private pilot requirement is for 3 hours of flight training
in manuvering solely by reference to instruments. Even so, the
record of accidents after non-instrument rated pilots wander into
weather is not good.

I think that few would want to mandate these instruments be in
gliders.

On the other hand, I have read postings describing sudden rain
encounters that forced a pilot to suddenly and unexpectedly have
to fly by instrument reference, in conditions where visibility
had been substantial (perhaps 15 miles) a few instants before.
I can see where a running gyro instrument in the panel could be
a useful safety instrument for the glider pilot who was also an
instrument competent airplane pilot.

I would not want to see such be required, but it pains me to
see situations where such capability would be disallowed.

Alan

Years ago, in a country where cloud flying was legal, I got caught above a layer of low cloud that formed suddenly near a thunderstorm gust front. I descended through the cloud with full brakes, keeping the wings level with the aid of a gyro turn and bank. It was stressful and quite a hairy descent! I was familiar enough with the instrument to survive the encounter, but in the succeeding 30 years flying I have avoided making the same mistake. I would counsel other VFR pilots to avoid this exposure to unnecessary risk..

Mike

On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 1:11:34 AM UTC-5, Alan wrote:

I would agree and disagree with Dan about this. Obvious reasons
include expense (gyros are expensive), weight, and power.

Here is a relatively inexpensive, low-maintenance, non-gyro based, and low power consuming Turn and Bank Indicator (that claims to be much easier to use than the old style).

http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/..._and_Bank.html