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Letter to the FAA



 
 
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  #52  
Old June 1st 17, 11:28 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Posts: 962
Default Letter to the FAA

On Wednesday, May 31, 2017 at 8:43:09 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
Andreas Maurer;947904 Wrote:
On Tue, 30 May 2017 14:24:11 +0100, Walt Connelly
wrote:
-
and Germany had required special training for pilots
flying CG hooks on aerotow. -

.... which isn't required anymore.

Regards from Germany
Andreas


Thank you Andreas, I do believe I used the past tense "had."

That being said I understand from some highly reliable sources that the
intended use of the CG hook was for ground launches. If you think of
where a string is attached to a KITE, it is not attached to the nose, it
is attached where it is attached for a reason. However it is not my
intention to cause any problems for the CG hook glider pilots out
there....rather to give a fighting chance to the tow pilot to release
quickly and effectively when the need arises. I have heard from tow
pilots who will not tow a CG hook glider with a Schweizer on the tow
plane.

I may be "Persona Non Grata" in the soaring world but I feel compelled
to move forward in this endeavor. I have much work left to do.

Walt


Well, you could do something positive then. For instance set up a means to share information on existing STCs or field approvals that others might find useful (anyone have a field approved Tost installation for an L-19? I'd be interested in that) or figure out how to get some engineering work done to support new applications, perhaps supported by a GoFundMe campaign or similar. I can think of many options. You know as well as the rest of us what form direct "help" from the FAA will take.


best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

  #53  
Old June 1st 17, 03:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Posts: 1,463
Default Letter to the FAA

As a sailplane pilot, I was taught to release IMMEDIATELY, if I lost sight of the tow plane. In these kiting accidents, how high are the sailplanes getting above normal tow path and about how long would they have lost sight of tow plane?

On Thursday, June 1, 2017 at 12:30:07 AM UTC-7, soarin wrote:
At 03:54 01 June 2017, wrote:
Nice discussion but.....
you are not considering the tow planes that have a winch system for tows.
There is a winch inside the fuselage that retracts the tow line after

each
tow.
At Williams they have a guillotine sytem to cut the tow line if needed.
For a dedicated tow plane this seems to be the most logical solution.
Really saves wear on the tow rope and provides a very predictable way to
"cut the cord" when needed.


Likewise is there any data regarding inverted Schweizer tow hooks?
We operated a commercial soaring operation using a 182 with an
inverted Schweizer hook for over 25 years. None of our tow pilots
ever had a problem releasing a kiting glider. There are undoubtedly
other operations that also used an inverted Schweizer hook.

We did also encourage tow pilots, that if the glider started to get high
to put their hand on the release handle (located on the floor between
the seats) and if the yoke touched the aft stop to immediately release.

Also is there any data regarding the Schweizer style hook with the roller
sold by Mcfarlan?

M Eiler


  #54  
Old June 1st 17, 07:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default Letter to the FAA

Of the 5 pure sailplanes I've owned, all but one had a CG releases
*ONLY*. To my mind, that does not imply that a CG hook is only for
ground launching because that would reduce the number of prospective
purchasers by a bunch.

As others have stated - please don't wake the sleeping giant (FAA). It
is for those tow pilots who have concerns on the matter to decline to
tow a CG release-equipped glider with a Schweizer-equipped tug. To put
it into blunter terms, it is not for you or the FAA to tell me what I
can or cannot fly based upon your concerns.

More freedom, less regulation.

Dan

On 5/31/2017 2:36 PM, Walt Connelly wrote:
Andreas Maurer;947904 Wrote:
On Tue, 30 May 2017 14:24:11 +0100, Walt Connelly
wrote:
-
and Germany had required special training for pilots
flying CG hooks on aerotow. -

.... which isn't required anymore.

Regards from Germany
Andreas

Thank you Andreas, I do believe I used the past tense "had."

That being said I understand from some highly reliable sources that the
intended use of the CG hook was for ground launches. If you think of
where a string is attached to a KITE, it is not attached to the nose, it
is attached where it is attached for a reason. However it is not my
intention to cause any problems for the CG hook glider pilots out
there....rather to give a fighting chance to the tow pilot to release
quickly and effectively when the need arises. I have heard from tow
pilots who will not tow a CG hook glider with a Schweizer on the tow
plane.

I may be "Persona Non Grata" in the soaring world but I feel compelled
to move forward in this endeavor. I have much work left to do.

Walt





--
Dan, 5J
  #55  
Old June 2nd 17, 01:47 PM
Walt Connelly Walt Connelly is offline
Senior Member
 
First recorded activity by AviationBanter: Aug 2010
Posts: 365
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tango Eight View Post
On Wednesday, May 31, 2017 at 8:43:09 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
Andreas Maurer;947904 Wrote:
On Tue, 30 May 2017 14:24:11 +0100, Walt Connelly
wrote:
-
and Germany had required special training for pilots
flying CG hooks on aerotow. -

.... which isn't required anymore.

Regards from Germany
Andreas


Thank you Andreas, I do believe I used the past tense "had."

That being said I understand from some highly reliable sources that the
intended use of the CG hook was for ground launches. If you think of
where a string is attached to a KITE, it is not attached to the nose, it
is attached where it is attached for a reason. However it is not my
intention to cause any problems for the CG hook glider pilots out
there....rather to give a fighting chance to the tow pilot to release
quickly and effectively when the need arises. I have heard from tow
pilots who will not tow a CG hook glider with a Schweizer on the tow
plane.

I may be "Persona Non Grata" in the soaring world but I feel compelled
to move forward in this endeavor. I have much work left to do.

Walt


Well, you could do something positive then. For instance set up a means to share information on existing STCs or field approvals that others might find useful (anyone have a field approved Tost installation for an L-19? I'd be interested in that) or figure out how to get some engineering work done to support new applications, perhaps supported by a GoFundMe campaign or similar. I can think of many options. You know as well as the rest of us what form direct "help" from the FAA will take.


best,
Evan Ludeman / T8
I am doing something positive. I am attempting to save the life of the next tow pilot who experiences a sudden (ln about the wink of an eye) kiting event down low. As I have stated, this problem is well known and documented in the SSA, SSF and FAA literature. At a MINIMUM all Schweizer hooks should be inverted AND the release handle needs to be IMMEDIATELY available to the tow pilot, NOT out of sight, down on the floor and in some cases modified (was this done with proper notification of the FAA) reducing the mechanical advantage necessary to actuate the release.

Walt
  #56  
Old June 2nd 17, 01:57 PM
Walt Connelly Walt Connelly is offline
Senior Member
 
First recorded activity by AviationBanter: Aug 2010
Posts: 365
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan St. Cloud View Post
As a sailplane pilot, I was taught to release IMMEDIATELY, if I lost sight of the tow plane. In these kiting accidents, how high are the sailplanes getting above normal tow path and about how long would they have lost sight of tow plane?

On Thursday, June 1, 2017 at 12:30:07 AM UTC-7, soarin wrote:
At 03:54 01 June 2017, wrote:
Nice discussion but.....
you are not considering the tow planes that have a winch system for tows.
There is a winch inside the fuselage that retracts the tow line after

each
tow.
At Williams they have a guillotine sytem to cut the tow line if needed.
For a dedicated tow plane this seems to be the most logical solution.
Really saves wear on the tow rope and provides a very predictable way to
"cut the cord" when needed.


Likewise is there any data regarding inverted Schweizer tow hooks?
We operated a commercial soaring operation using a 182 with an
inverted Schweizer hook for over 25 years. None of our tow pilots
ever had a problem releasing a kiting glider. There are undoubtedly
other operations that also used an inverted Schweizer hook.

We did also encourage tow pilots, that if the glider started to get high
to put their hand on the release handle (located on the floor between
the seats) and if the yoke touched the aft stop to immediately release.

Also is there any data regarding the Schweizer style hook with the roller
sold by Mcfarlan?

M Eiler
I would hope that all glider pilots in their training understand the need to release immediately when they lose sight of the tow plane. The problem is that not everything everyone is trained to do is accomplished when needed.

In my case a 15 year old on her first solos kited not just high and fast but to the right, pulling my nose down and to the left as if in a spin and does this below 350 feet, this happened in the wink of an eye. We can discuss recurrent trainining which would not have entered into the picture in this situation. We can discuss emphasis on releasing but getting someone to actually do it is another thing. We can discuss it until the cows come home but the bottom line is the tow pilot must be given a fighting chance to have a determination in the outcome when others involved in the situation fail.

Walt
  #57  
Old June 2nd 17, 08:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 478
Default Letter to the FAA

You can keep terminally ill patients from dying of their disease by shooting them in the head. Works every time.
  #58  
Old June 2nd 17, 09:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
ND
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Posts: 314
Default Letter to the FAA

I, along with many others, agree with burt on this one walt. go through steve northcraft if you choose to pursue this further.

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 8:43:10 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
Before I send my letter to the FAA I'd like to ask if anyone has ever
attempted to get them to see the light and end the use of Schweizer
hooks on tow planes here in the land of the free and the home of the
brave. It is a well known fact and clearly stated in the SSA/SSF and
FAA circulars and literature that under certain conditions (the exact
condition that the tow pilot will need to release) that it can be near
impossible to release the glider. Tow planes have crashed, lives have
been lost and at the same time everyone knows that this is a dangerous
situation.

Along with the conversion to Tost hooks I'd like to see it made
mandatory that the release handles be up high, near the throttle and
quickly available to the tow pilot with adequate mechanical advantage. I
can assure you that one does not have the time to go ducking and
reaching and feeling for a handle down on the floor of a Pawnee while
the glider kites in back of you.

The idea of requiring nose hooks on all gliders does not seem to be
feasible although it has been brought up to me as something that needs
to be addressed. My understanding is that the CG hook is meant for
ground/winch launch operations, however I have probably done thousands
of CG hook aero tows with no problem. For the most part these are ships
being flown by the best and most aware pilots. I'd like more input from
experience pilots on this point.

I currently have a number of highly experienced pilots from all levels
of aviation in agreement with me and willing to help me in this cause.


If one life is saved as a result of this endeavor then it will be well
worth it.

Walt Connelly




--
Walt Connelly


  #59  
Old June 2nd 17, 11:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Scott Williams
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Posts: 198
Default Letter to the FAA

Walt,
You are not listening to the people you asked an opinion of.
The majority are asking you to not act on your proposed letter.
You must realize that the governments response is completely unpredictable,
Maybe they will ignore you, maybe they will conduct a survey, I have a sense that they will not be willing to spend any money on a solution. But it costs almost nothing to ground a fleet. especially a fleet of mostly non commercial, recreational gliders and tow aircraft.
I have no faith that the FAA would be willing to differentiate between a Schweizer tow release on a tug and a Schweizer release on a glider.

Improbable, Horrible, Worst case scenario, All Schweizer release equipped aircraft are grounded, including gliders.
Could happen? ask the owner of a Blanik l13 with 200 hrs.
If I'm being alarmist so be it. But You must acknowledge you have no idea what the goverment response will be.

Respectfully,
Scott.
  #60  
Old June 3rd 17, 02:52 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 774
Default Letter to the FAA

Walt-

Before you go off with velocity but no direction, please supply the names and incidences of all these dead tow pilots. You see a problem because it happened to you. I agree that perhaps the Schweizer release is susceptible to failures when the towed glider is wildly out of position, and that there is likely a remedy through either inverting the release or hoping for better training.

Asking for a ban on these release mechanisms nationwide is likely to cause a large number of glider operations to halt operations since the Schweizer release is the ONLY mechanism accepted for a particular tow plane. Banning the Schweizer release is likely to shut down an active club or commercial operator.

The FAA will issue a Notice of Proposed Rule Making (NPRM) prior to proposing an Airworthiness Directive that would ban the use of the Schweizer release. They will have to justify this by citing the "Unsafe conditions" that the AD is supposed to correct. You will have to supply the evidence that this is, in fact, a valid concern. Be prepared with solid evidence of fatalities, accidents incidents and testimony from affected parties. Your word and your singular experiences will not be enough.

Commercial operators and clubs faced with a significant monetary outlay to change release systems are encouraged to document the hundreds of thousands of successful aerotows using the Schweizer release with no incidents or accidents (or tow pilot fatalities).

You don't like Schweizer releases because of your particularly terrifying experience, and I can heartily agree and accept that. Glad you are still around. But, how many tows have you done with the same system that went off without a hitch?

I have fallen off a bicycle several times. (Also motorcycles, hang gliders, horses etc., etc.) but I don't see the need to stop other participants when the vast majority of operations are carried out successfully..

Or, as one of my more colorfully necked acquaintances recently said,

"Y'all don't need ta' NUKE the gopher!"
 




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