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TOW PLANE Accident



 
 
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  #51  
Old March 9th 19, 07:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Default TOW PLANE Accident

On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 8:24:04 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I can assure you that not all kiting incidents are slowly developing situations. I've been there at just above 300 feet when in the blink of an eye you find yourself nose down ***before you could even think of releasing***..


[emphasis added]

Right. So after all the brouhaha and threats to write the FAA about our equipment, it turns out that in at least one of the events that got you goin', you say the hook/release doesn't matter because you didn't even have a chance to respond. Would you care to clarify?

Btw, how long was your rope?

T8
  #52  
Old March 10th 19, 02:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default TOW PLANE Accident

On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 1:37:18 PM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 8:24:04 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I can assure you that not all kiting incidents are slowly developing situations. I've been there at just above 300 feet when in the blink of an eye you find yourself nose down ***before you could even think of releasing***.


[emphasis added]

Right. So after all the brouhaha and threats to write the FAA about our equipment, it turns out that in at least one of the events that got you goin', you say the hook/release doesn't matter because you didn't even have a chance to respond. Would you care to clarify?

Btw, how long was your rope?

T8


First of all I do not make threats, I make promises.

"Our equipment?" If YOUR equipment is such that it could (and has) lead to the death of a tow pilot I have a right then to express my learned opinion, especially as one who has experience the situation.

Where did I say the "hook/release doesn't matter?" THAT was YOUR characterization of my words. What I said was that "in the blink of an eye you find yourself nose down before you could even think of releasing." This point is important in that every report by the NTSB I have read seems to fault the tow pilot for not releasing early enough. The fact that these situation can and do occur in the wink of an eye does not dismiss the fact that the tow pilot should have a system that functions in the seconds after the occurance allowing for an unquestioned release and an opportunity to recover before impacting the ground. The Schweizer hook with a release down on the floor of the Pawnee as I have pointed out is well documented with regards to not functioning under the pressure exerted by a suddenly kiting glider.

Any first year engineering student has heard the term "form follows function." The form of this system fails to function under the conditions in which it must function and therefore the form must be changed, reengineered or replaced.

Any first year engineering student has heard the term "mechanical advantage.." The requirement for a 5-1 release handle ratio is obviously inadequate to overcome the pressures exerted on the Schweizer hook when the glider kites suddenly and yet this requirement seems to persist.

The tow pilot who lost is life in the incident at Skyline I understand had a Tost system with a guillotine. I have been informed that even these systems can fail although I understand there is no pressure on the release. I have sent an email to the NTSB regarding this incident asking "where was the release?" IF it was down on the floor he may not have been able to grasp the handle. In short, every known design flaw in these systems needs to be recognized and redesigned.

As for "how long was my rope?" I made my ropes longer than 200 feet, usually 220 to 230 so we could repair the ends and get a few more tows on the rope. I meticulously inspected the rope each morning and would do so throughout the day as opportunity permitted. The rest of the time one must count on the individual hooking up the glider to adequately inspect the rope for knots and weak areas. The rope in this incident would have been 200 feet or more. I would keep any rope shorter than 200 for tow outs on retrieves which were generally tows for highly experienced pilots. I took my responsibilities as a tow pilot very seriously.

The incident in question at Skyline points out that even instructors can't be trusted to always do things right.

Your comments indicate to me that you are not or never have been a tow pilot. Am I right?

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
7000 tows
  #53  
Old March 10th 19, 07:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tom BravoMike
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Default TOW PLANE Accident

(…) I took my responsibilities as a tow pilot very seriously.

(…)

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
7000 tows


You did, Walt. It was always a pleasure to be towed by you. I still have your voice recorded in one of my videos, responding on the radio to my self-announcement in the pattern for landing. I will always remember how you once taxied to my parking position, seeing my hesitation and checking if I needed a tow. Friendly and responsible. Thanks!
  #54  
Old March 10th 19, 09:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default TOW PLANE Accident

On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 6:59:06 PM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
My take after reading the NTSB report is the glider pilot looked away to adjust a GoPro, Got High on the tow early and drove the tug into the ground..
Does this sound correct?
God Damn it. These are easily preventable accidents.
Killing Tow Pilots like this is very bad form.
When I was towing I'd look pilots in the eye that I didn't know and say " If you get high on me your getting rope, immediately." Got it?


No, this does not sound correct to me. I think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions unwarranted. Read it a bit closer! First, the pilot, and instructor, was in the back seat and the "passenger" was in the front seat with the camera. The pilot did not touch the camera and it has nothing to do with the accident as I read it. Are you suggesting the instructor let the passenger fly the tow? That would be the first cause of the accident if I were writing the report. There are many other examples of assumptions being made that I don't have time to go into, but one, my gopro stops the video and starts the video after a certain duration, that start and stop could have been done automatically by the camera, and two " Based on the glider altimeter readings that can be seen in the videos, the glider climbed about 50 ft during this time, from 890 to 940 ft msl. Video analysis showed that the tow plane altitude relative to the glider decreased by 63 ft during these 13 seconds (based on an estimated tow rope length of 160 ft).", does not sound like a glider pulling the towplane down. Perhaps the towplane descended dramatically after that for some other reason. Regardless, it is in no way conclusive that the glider pulled the towplane down. I have no idea what is likely and I'm not going to presume. Most of the time we all talk about how inaccurate/uninformed the NTSB reports are,why is it different here?
  #55  
Old March 10th 19, 09:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 145
Default TOW PLANE Accident

On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 6:59:06 PM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
My take after reading the NTSB report is the glider pilot looked away to adjust a GoPro, Got High on the tow early and drove the tug into the ground..
Does this sound correct?
God Damn it. These are easily preventable accidents.
Killing Tow Pilots like this is very bad form.
When I was towing I'd look pilots in the eye that I didn't know and say " If you get high on me your getting rope, immediately." Got it?


I will grant you, that is one terribly written report. It is hard to distinguish exactly who reported what and where the camera was. I THINK it is meant to read that the passenger comments, "he then looked away from the tow plane briefly to adjust a video camera. When he looked back toward the tow plane, he did not immediately see it but then noted that it was below and right of the glider." The report then states what the pilot reported? "Additionally, the flight instructor noticed slack in the tow rope that attached the glider to the tow plane. He then released the tow rope, turned the glider 180°, and landed uneventfully." I don't know because later it refers to the video that the pilot recorded...

If anything it's a good argument for a good liberal arts education regardless of career (you get to do plenty of writing that is read and critiqued by professors!).
  #56  
Old March 10th 19, 09:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike C
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Default TOW PLANE Accident

On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:27:16 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 6:59:06 PM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
My take after reading the NTSB report is the glider pilot looked away to adjust a GoPro, Got High on the tow early and drove the tug into the ground.
Does this sound correct?
God Damn it. These are easily preventable accidents.
Killing Tow Pilots like this is very bad form.
When I was towing I'd look pilots in the eye that I didn't know and say " If you get high on me your getting rope, immediately." Got it?


I will grant you, that is one terribly written report. It is hard to distinguish exactly who reported what and where the camera was. I THINK it is meant to read that the passenger comments, "he then looked away from the tow plane briefly to adjust a video camera. When he looked back toward the tow plane, he did not immediately see it but then noted that it was below and right of the glider." The report then states what the pilot reported? "Additionally, the flight instructor noticed slack in the tow rope that attached the glider to the tow plane. He then released the tow rope, turned the glider 180°, and landed uneventfully." I don't know because later it refers to the video that the pilot recorded...

If anything it's a good argument for a good liberal arts education regardless of career (you get to do plenty of writing that is read and critiqued by professors!).



"Video Study
The glider flight instructor recorded two videos on a GoPro Hero 5 video camera that included most of the flight. Although the videos did not capture the tow plane's ground impact, they captured portions of the tow plane's flight just before impact. Copies of the videos were forwarded to the National Transportation Safety Board Vehicle Recorders Laboratory, Washington, DC, for further examination."
  #57  
Old March 10th 19, 09:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 145
Default TOW PLANE Accident

On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 3:38:19 PM UTC-5, Mike C wrote:
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:27:16 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 6:59:06 PM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
My take after reading the NTSB report is the glider pilot looked away to adjust a GoPro, Got High on the tow early and drove the tug into the ground.
Does this sound correct?
God Damn it. These are easily preventable accidents.
Killing Tow Pilots like this is very bad form.
When I was towing I'd look pilots in the eye that I didn't know and say " If you get high on me your getting rope, immediately." Got it?


I will grant you, that is one terribly written report. It is hard to distinguish exactly who reported what and where the camera was. I THINK it is meant to read that the passenger comments, "he then looked away from the tow plane briefly to adjust a video camera. When he looked back toward the tow plane, he did not immediately see it but then noted that it was below and right of the glider." The report then states what the pilot reported? "Additionally, the flight instructor noticed slack in the tow rope that attached the glider to the tow plane. He then released the tow rope, turned the glider 180°, and landed uneventfully." I don't know because later it refers to the video that the pilot recorded...

If anything it's a good argument for a good liberal arts education regardless of career (you get to do plenty of writing that is read and critiqued by professors!).



"Video Study
The glider flight instructor recorded two videos on a GoPro Hero 5 video camera that included most of the flight. Although the videos did not capture the tow plane's ground impact, they captured portions of the tow plane's flight just before impact. Copies of the videos were forwarded to the National Transportation Safety Board Vehicle Recorders Laboratory, Washington, DC, for further examination."


Yes, I read that, and I alluded to that portion in my comment. What is your point? What conclusion did you draw from that part of the report?
  #58  
Old March 10th 19, 10:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Steve Koerner
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Posts: 430
Default TOW PLANE Accident

On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 1:27:16 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 6:59:06 PM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
My take after reading the NTSB report is the glider pilot looked away to adjust a GoPro, Got High on the tow early and drove the tug into the ground.
Does this sound correct?
God Damn it. These are easily preventable accidents.
Killing Tow Pilots like this is very bad form.
When I was towing I'd look pilots in the eye that I didn't know and say " If you get high on me your getting rope, immediately." Got it?


I will grant you, that is one terribly written report. It is hard to distinguish exactly who reported what and where the camera was. I THINK it is meant to read that the passenger comments, "he then looked away from the tow plane briefly to adjust a video camera. When he looked back toward the tow plane, he did not immediately see it but then noted that it was below and right of the glider." The report then states what the pilot reported? "Additionally, the flight instructor noticed slack in the tow rope that attached the glider to the tow plane. He then released the tow rope, turned the glider 180°, and landed uneventfully." I don't know because later it refers to the video that the pilot recorded...

If anything it's a good argument for a good liberal arts education regardless of career (you get to do plenty of writing that is read and critiqued by professors!).




I found the report to be clear and well written. This is one of the few NTSB glider accident reports in which most of us can read the report and know with high confidence what went wrong.

Your suggestion that it is probably the passenger's comment about looking away is just wacky when the opening sentence to that paragraph makes perfectly clear that it is comment from the pilot that is being reported.

Making judgements about accidents within the soaring community is critically important so that we have steerage for fixing things that aren't going well. This business of kiting on tow is one of those things that very much needs attention because it is killing people. Suggesting that we all put our head in the sand and proclaim that we don't know for sure is asinine. When a fatal accident happens we all need to learn from that event whatever it is that needs to be learned.
  #59  
Old March 10th 19, 10:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default TOW PLANE Accident

Could instant total power failure lead to a kiting incident? Tug starts down immediately glider goes up. Not saying that is what happened here just wondering about the possibility. Anyone had a full instantaneous power failure on tow?
  #60  
Old March 10th 19, 10:24 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 145
Default TOW PLANE Accident

On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 4:03:11 PM UTC-5, Steve Koerner wrote:
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 1:27:16 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 6:59:06 PM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
My take after reading the NTSB report is the glider pilot looked away to adjust a GoPro, Got High on the tow early and drove the tug into the ground.
Does this sound correct?
God Damn it. These are easily preventable accidents.
Killing Tow Pilots like this is very bad form.
When I was towing I'd look pilots in the eye that I didn't know and say " If you get high on me your getting rope, immediately." Got it?


I will grant you, that is one terribly written report. It is hard to distinguish exactly who reported what and where the camera was. I THINK it is meant to read that the passenger comments, "he then looked away from the tow plane briefly to adjust a video camera. When he looked back toward the tow plane, he did not immediately see it but then noted that it was below and right of the glider." The report then states what the pilot reported? "Additionally, the flight instructor noticed slack in the tow rope that attached the glider to the tow plane. He then released the tow rope, turned the glider 180°, and landed uneventfully." I don't know because later it refers to the video that the pilot recorded...

If anything it's a good argument for a good liberal arts education regardless of career (you get to do plenty of writing that is read and critiqued by professors!).




I found the report to be clear and well written. This is one of the few NTSB glider accident reports in which most of us can read the report and know with high confidence what went wrong.

Your suggestion that it is probably the passenger's comment about looking away is just wacky when the opening sentence to that paragraph makes perfectly clear that it is comment from the pilot that is being reported.

Making judgements about accidents within the soaring community is critically important so that we have steerage for fixing things that aren't going well. This business of kiting on tow is one of those things that very much needs attention because it is killing people. Suggesting that we all put our head in the sand and proclaim that we don't know for sure is asinine. When a fatal accident happens we all need to learn from that event whatever it is that needs to be learned.


"Suggesting that we all put our head in the sand and proclaim that we don't know for sure is asinine." Brilliant and useful comment, personal attacks usually are. Kind of my point about this thread, so much of it is useless crap. IMO we haven't learned much about "When a fatal accident happens we all need to learn from that event whatever it is that needs to be learned" from this thread. For the most part, just a bunch of people spouting off emotionally. Fine if you see it differently, but nothing I've read in this thread is going to stop the next accident.
Anyway, we could also wait for someone who knows. Anyone who has looked at the video knows. Perhaps we tone it down so that someone feels like they can make a comment without getting flamed.
 




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