The Apology

On Saturday, October 24, 2020 at 5:54:58 PM UTC-5, Gregg Ballou wrote:
Bob with the women pilot outrage over an illustration of a normal woman asking a normal man a common soaring related question how many men are going to be willing to help out at future WSPA events? The chance of giving offense to that crowd is demonstrably astronomical. You don't need to defund the WSPA the ladies likely killed it off themselves.

Gregg -

I helped crew when SoaringNV hosted the 2015 WSPA Seminar at Minden. Had a great time and met some fine folks, as you do at glider meets. If the opportunity arises, I'll be happy to do so again.

Mike

I believe that a person has a choice to be offended or not. I don't believe that it is acceptable to call people names. It is a lazy way to debate an issue.

“The more easily you get offended, the less developed you are as a human being.�
― Robert Celner

"Every day we have plenty of opportunities to get angry, stressed or offended. But what you're doing when you indulge these negative emotions is giving something outside yourself power over your happiness. You can choose to not let little things upset you." Joel Osteen

"When you are spiritually connected, you are not looking for occasions to be offended, and you are not judging and labeling others. You are in a state of grace in which you know you are connected to God and thus free from the effects of anyone or anything external to yourself." Wayne Dyer

Boggs

On Saturday, October 24, 2020 at 5:51:31 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Hugh, the term is Feminazi, it is a pejorative that refers to women as strong willed whom demand social equity and equality. Personally, I am a huge advocate of social equity between genders and race. What I do not support is the efforts of the feminazi movement to make every aspect of their perceived sexist displays as an opportunity to advance their agenda at the expense of others. In this case it was the SSA, SSF and the Editor. Do I believe that the apologies should have been issued, NO, what should have happened is that the targeted victims should have simply explained the actual meaning of the illustration. Yes, the SSA, SSF and the Editor were targeted, make no mistake about it.
Now about defunding the WSPA, I would do that tomorrow, it should be combined into the general soaring community and not hold separate classifications. combine all contestants into a single group, "Glider Pilots". I know of several female pilots that would hold their own against men, like Linda said, "Bring It ON". Last time I looked the female glider pilots were flying white gliders and not pink.
As for me, I owe no apology, I have extended an invitation to Linda that I hope she accepts, but she will have to clean up her vulgarity.
Bob-

I'm sorry that women expressing their displeasure with an advertisement and then being taken seriously is such a threat to your way of life that you would continue to refer to them as "nazis".

Now, have you ever considered that the WSPA exists because of the fact that there are people in this world who find their way of life threatened over something as simple as women being taken seriously when they voice a complaint? So seriously in fact that they will invent incendiary terms relating them Nazi's and Fascists?

Probably not. Because you are used to being taken seriously when you complain about things.

-Hugh
Hugh, please do not speculate about my way of life, actually it is very good, I worked for it! Feminazi is not a term as offensive as sexist, you need to really understand the term and origin before you speculate on the offensive use of it. When I see a way of life threatened by such a few that only have the purpose of supporting their own agenda I take notice and respond. You may go ahead and drink the Cool-Aid, but I will stand on firm ground and look at things objectively. So what is the difference in the complainant's using the word sexist and me referring to them as Feminazis? I guess when I refer to those as Feminazis, those whom want equality, it is in your opinion sexist. I appreciate your opinion, thank you very much, Bob

So what is the difference in the complainant's using the word sexist and me referring to them as Feminazis?

Just going out on a limb here, but probably the "Nazi" part.

-Hugh

From Wikipedea about Goddwins law.
There are many corollaries to Godwin's law, some considered more canonical (by being adopted by Godwin himself)[3] than others.[1] For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that, when a Hitler comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever made the comparison loses whatever debate is in progress.[8] This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin's law.[9]

On Saturday, October 24, 2020 at 7:36:52 PM UTC-4, Steve Bralla wrote:
From Wikipedea about Goddwins law.
There are many corollaries to Godwin's law, some considered more canonical (by being adopted by Godwin himself)[3] than others.[1] For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that, when a Hitler comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever made the comparison loses whatever debate is in progress.[8] This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin's law.[9]

What a really sad state of affairs that most of the posters in this thread show absolutely no evidence of empathy (i.e. the capacity to see things through other's eyes) wrt the complainers. Very disappointing to me. The ad was bad enough in that it pours salt on open wounds, the "mansplaining" of the posters is off the wall.

What a really sad state of affairs that most of the posters in this thread show absolutely no evidence of empathy (i.e. the capacity to see things through other's eyes) wrt the complainers. Very disappointing to me. The ad was bad enough in that it pours salt on open wounds, the "mansplaining" of the posters is off the wall.

Totally agree that's bad, John. But I'm more concerned, oh, I don't know, about the fact that we have people on he

1) calling women "childless corporate whores" without any remorse
2) saying a woman would "look better if she kept her mouth shut"
3) indicating that the women who took the time to voice their discomfort should apologize to effectively everyone they have ever encountered in aviation
4) asking each of the women that voiced their discomfort "what they had done for soaring"
5) said "what these females have done is dig a big hole, I don't think they have a shovel big enough to dig their way out."
6) said "It would be great if all women could be subservient and get my slippers and a beer"
7) oh...and the whole nazi/fascist rhetoric.

All of this because there were women who said "I didn't like that ad for these reasons."

People on here compared women to Nazis, Fascists, whores, and wished they were more subservient because they were willing to voice their discomfort about an advertisement.

I'll say that again.

People on here compared women to Nazis, Fascists, whores, and wished they were more subservient because they were willing to voice their discomfort about an advertisement.

And not a single person who made those statements has said "maybe that was over the line." Not one of them.

That's what I'm concerned about.

On Saturday, 24 October 2020 at 22:51:31 UTC+1, wrote:
Hugh, the term is Feminazi, it is a pejorative that refers to women as strong willed whom demand social equity and equality. Personally, I am a huge advocate of social equity between genders and race. What I do not support is the efforts of the feminazi movement to make every aspect of their perceived sexist displays as an opportunity to advance their agenda at the expense of others. In this case it was the SSA, SSF and the Editor. Do I believe that the apologies should have been issued, NO, what should have happened is that the targeted victims should have simply explained the actual meaning of the illustration. Yes, the SSA, SSF and the Editor were targeted, make no mistake about it.
Now about defunding the WSPA, I would do that tomorrow, it should be combined into the general soaring community and not hold separate classifications. combine all contestants into a single group, "Glider Pilots". I know of several female pilots that would hold their own against men, like Linda said, "Bring It ON". Last time I looked the female glider pilots were flying white gliders and not pink.
As for me, I owe no apology, I have extended an invitation to Linda that I hope she accepts, but she will have to clean up her vulgarity.
Bob-

I'm sorry that women expressing their displeasure with an advertisement and then being taken seriously is such a threat to your way of life that you would continue to refer to them as "nazis".

Now, have you ever considered that the WSPA exists because of the fact that there are people in this world who find their way of life threatened over something as simple as women being taken seriously when they voice a complaint? So seriously in fact that they will invent incendiary terms relating them Nazi's and Fascists?

Probably not. Because you are used to being taken seriously when you complain about things.

-Hugh

With respect to the last point, I really can't see why most people would take this person's complaints seriously

It's almost like a satirical spoof, sending up such misogynistic attitudes, except apparently sincere

We could debate whether the SSF ad was an unfortunate attempt at retro advertising--along the lines of "show her it's a man's world [with Van Heusen ties]"--that fell flat or if it were something more objectionable and sinister. It almost doesn't matter. In the old days, if we inadvertently offended or insulted someone, the obligatory response was to apologize, listen to the other person, and promise to learn and do better in the future. How quaint.

On Saturday, October 24, 2020 at 8:19:12 PM UTC-7, andy l wrote:

Now about defunding the WSPA,
Tough to do. The ladies raise their own funds, very effectively.
(And with support from some fellows who see assisting women into pilot roles as worthwhile.)
And the ladies grow their membership in WSPA too.


With respect to the last point, I really can't see why most people would take this person's complaints seriously
It's almost like a satirical spoof, sending up such misogynistic attitudes, except apparently sincere

These persons.... plural. And plenty publicly, and repetitively.

I have seen female pilot prejudice myself, first-hand and ugly, on many occasions.
Perhaps the most entertaining was wandering into a glider FBO (~20 years ago), at
a prestigious western soaring site, and being asked if I would like to peruse the
glider jewelry counter.
I was staring at the rental rates and thinking about flying while a customer of mine
completed a glider pre-buy inspection.
"While "your guy" is flying, maybe you'd like to choose a bauble as compensation?"
I was first surprised I wasn't recognized, then realized that in my glider contest T-shirt,
I was in the minority -- still -- and being treated like a non-pilot perhaps non-customer.
Rather than become a flaming witch, I demurred. The lady tow/glider pilot with me got outside
without busting her seams, and asked why I went so low key.
I said it wasn't worth the fight that day. I was on a rare road trip, and wanted to relax.
Thoughtless, unintentional, myopic -- but a prejudicial view of women in his lobby.

I am warmed by the long term male friends who at least ( and several with much more effort)
posted to say that it was worth listening to hurt feelings. To make an effort
to understand. A few posted who I might enjoy meeting and befriending.
Personally, I read right past the ad. Perhaps I have become teflon-coated
and inured to the possibility that men and women will view each other as equals.

Do I like strident and contentious confrontations over perceptions in all of society now?
No.
Do I think the letters by women in Soaring were 'pushing an agenda"?
Only one of awareness, and expressing dismay.
Do I like the escalation/aggravation that this thread will create amongst males and females?
No.
Do I think the soaring population is so vast that it can suffer these internal slaps with zero repercussions?
No. At the least, it will hurt some friendships.


Mostly, I concentrate on teaching new people to soar. I try to make them feel safe
as a student, free to ask any questions without ridicule. Even today, I said several times,
"I don't know -- is a safe answer." I was blessed to have two men and two women
( one a 13 year old girl) as early students. 6 flights, one a soaring flight of 1.2 hrs,
and climb rates of 300-500 fpm. Two hawks and a gaggle of buzzards. The teenager
got to dance across the thermal from her host/friend while he climbed the 1-26.
She videoed it.
Those are the moments I hold in close and dear.
The rest I try to let blow away on the dust.

I don't care about correct attribution of the aphorism,
but maybe this is why women have avoided this thread.
Don't wrestle with the pigs. You just get dirty and they like it.

Few men are 'pigs'. But those few might cloud the perception of swine.

Cindy B