Plane Accidentally Starts Moving With 6-Year-Old Inside

Robert M. Gary wrote:
One
thing that "electric" pilots do not realize is that its very, very
hard to guess how much power the engine will develop when it first
starts. Sometimes it will just be idling, other times it will start
with a big roar.

I seem to remember a rule about a licensed pilot at the controls when
hand propping.

Am I dreaming?

On Dec 31, 1:34*pm, B A R R Y wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote:
One
thing that "electric" pilots do not realize is that its very, very
hard to guess how much power the engine will develop when it first
starts. Sometimes it will just be idling, other times it will start
with a big roar.

I seem to remember a rule about a licensed pilot at the controls when
hand propping.

Am I dreaming?

In the US you are. That is a Canadian rule. I can't ever remember
having a licensed pilot when I was hand proping. In truth its only
scarry to those that haven't done it. In fact you have to stop
yourself every once-in-a-while because it becomes so common its easy
to let your guard down. If I had to have another pilot around that
would have killed 90% of my flights.

-Robert

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
...
On Dec 29, 9:48 pm, "BT" wrote:
It may have been an "accident" when the unpiloted aircraft hit the trees.
But it the airplane did not accidentally start moving.. that would be
negligence on the grandfathers part

Wouldn't that still be an accident? Are you suggesting that if the
plane was not tied down it was a "on purpose"?

If one does not follow known procedure and safety guidelines and causes
injury.
Is it an accident that you did not do as instructed?
Or is it negligence.

On Dec 31, 4:34*pm, B A R R Y wrote:
I seem to remember a rule about a licensed pilot at the controls when
hand propping.

Am I dreaming?

I know some airports require it. I can't find anything FAR's
regarding it in a quick web search.

The FAA's Airplane Handbook however (which is not a set of rules but
rather a textbook) suggests a person "familiar with the controls" to
be inside the plane.

The few guys I know at the airport who have planes that need to be
hand propped generally just find anyone nearby. Several times I've
seen one guy who owns a pretty nice J-3 let one of the younger
teenagers that hangs around the airport sit inside while he propped
the plane, and as a "present" he let the kid taxi it over to the fuel
pumps.

Of course he's not much for regulations even if that was illegal. I've
seen the same guy take that little plane off from the parking ramp
rather than taxi out to the runway O.O.

Mike Gaskins

Robert M. Gary wrote:
On Dec 31, 1:34 pm, B A R R Y wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote:
One
thing that "electric" pilots do not realize is that its very, very
hard to guess how much power the engine will develop when it first
starts. Sometimes it will just be idling, other times it will start
with a big roar.
I seem to remember a rule about a licensed pilot at the controls when
hand propping.

Am I dreaming?

In the US you are.

Maybe I'm thinking of an airport rule...

"BT" wrote in message
...
Is it an accident that you did not do as instructed?
Or is it negligence.

The two are not mutually exclusive, so your answer is "both". We are all
capable of doing dumb things. (though some of us may be more capable than
others)

Vaughn

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
...
On Dec 29, 9:48 pm, "BT" wrote:
It may have been an "accident" when the unpiloted aircraft hit the
trees.
But it the airplane did not accidentally start moving.. that would be
negligence on the grandfathers part

Wouldn't that still be an accident? Are you suggesting that if the
plane was not tied down it was a "on purpose"?

In anycase, its not always practical to tie down the tail (especially
in areas without tiedown). I had 3 ways to secure the Aeronca and J-3.
Brakes, chock, tail tiedown. I would always use 2 of those 3. Many,
many times I started the plane when no tie down was available but then
I would use a chock and the aircraft brake (which was marginal). One
thing that "electric" pilots do not realize is that its very, very
hard to guess how much power the engine will develop when it first
starts. Sometimes it will just be idling, other times it will start
with a big roar. Once you've started the plane you can walk around,
put it in a low idle, and then unsecure the airplane.

-Robert

Back in the mid 70's I witnessed brake failure on a Luscombe during
rollout of a landing. The airplane ground looped and went into a fence.
The FAA inspector classified it as an incident. He said that incidents
did not result in injuries requiring hospital treatment. Accidents did
require hospital treatment. I don't know if that was his own policy or
the FAA's at the time.

--
Anyolmouse

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
...
Robert M. Gary wrote:
On Dec 31, 1:34 pm, B A R R Y wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote:
One
thing that "electric" pilots do not realize is that its very, very
hard to guess how much power the engine will develop when it first
starts. Sometimes it will just be idling, other times it will start
with a big roar.
I seem to remember a rule about a licensed pilot at the controls when
hand propping.

Am I dreaming?

In the US you are.

Maybe I'm thinking of an airport rule...

Yes, you are--and occasionally a municipal rule. I won't even try to hazard
a guess as to whether either of those are enforceable, or under what
circumstances.

Peter

"Anyolmouse" wrote in message
...

Back in the mid 70's I witnessed brake failure on a Luscombe during
rollout of a landing. The airplane ground looped and went into a fence.
The FAA inspector classified it as an incident. He said that incidents
did not result in injuries requiring hospital treatment. Accidents did
require hospital treatment. I don't know if that was his own policy or
the FAA's at the time.

See FARs Part 830.2 (definitions)

Vaughn

"Anyolmouse" wrote in message
...
|
| "Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
|
...
| On Dec 29, 9:48 pm, "BT" wrote:
| It may have been an "accident" when the unpiloted aircraft hit the
| trees.
| But it the airplane did not accidentally start moving.. that would
be
| negligence on the grandfathers part
|
| Wouldn't that still be an accident? Are you suggesting that if the
| plane was not tied down it was a "on purpose"?
|
| In anycase, its not always practical to tie down the tail (especially
| in areas without tiedown). I had 3 ways to secure the Aeronca and J-3.
| Brakes, chock, tail tiedown. I would always use 2 of those 3. Many,
| many times I started the plane when no tie down was available but then
| I would use a chock and the aircraft brake (which was marginal). One
| thing that "electric" pilots do not realize is that its very, very
| hard to guess how much power the engine will develop when it first
| starts. Sometimes it will just be idling, other times it will start
| with a big roar. Once you've started the plane you can walk around,
| put it in a low idle, and then unsecure the airplane.
|
| -Robert
|
| Back in the mid 70's I witnessed brake failure on a Luscombe during
| rollout of a landing. The airplane ground looped and went into a
fence.
| The FAA inspector classified it as an incident. He said that incidents
| did not result in injuries requiring hospital treatment. Accidents did
| require hospital treatment. I don't know if that was his own policy or
| the FAA's at the time.
|
| --
| Anyolmouse
|

Here is the definition taken from:
http://www.nolan-law.com/practice-ar...ghts/#Incident

An aviation accident is the most serious and may be defined as such if
at least one person is killed or hospitalized for longer than 24 hours
and/or the aircraft is destroyed or substantially damaged. Thus, it is
possible to have an aviation accident in which no people are seriously
injured but the aircraft is lost as was the case early in 2008 with the
loss of a British Airways B777 at Heathrow Airport. Also meeting the
test of an aviation accident was the 1997 loss of a TWA B747 flying out
of New York when a fuel tank exploded and all 230 persons aboard were
killed and the aircraft was destroyed.

I guess negligence could come into play either for accidents or
incidents.

--
Anyolmouse